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Subject: Compuslory Sideway Pass Question rss

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Vicente Martínez
Spain
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Hello!

I just received my game today and I’m studying the rules.

First, sorry for my bad english... this is not my mother languaje... but I try as hard I can.

I am very concerned about the “Next, the player on the ball must pass it sideways to the closest team-mate IN THE SAME LINE.” phase.

¿Why does this passing is compulsory? I find it ilogical and anti-thematic… Perhaps doing this pass is not the best option due to the current positioning of your team. Perhaps you want the player to keep the ball, because its characteristics / special rules / current position, etc. I can’t find the logic of this compulsory pass.

Another think I don’t undesrtand is why some passes can’t be intercepted (as this sideway pass) no matter the distance (you can pass the ball at a distance of 3 squares), and other passes, much shorter cen be intercepted…

Perhaps a much more logical phase would be… “the player with the barr CAN pass it sideways to a player who is ADJACENT to the ball owner”, showing a “short sideway pass”.

Of course this should be playtested as it is an impact on the game flow… but it would feel much closer to a real footbal experience.

Regards,

Drawler.
 
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Patryk Kowalski
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Hello Vicente
Let me address all the issues you've found after studying the rules here, in one post. Your questions are as follows:

1) Compulsory sideways pass - why compulsory?
2) Some passes can't be intercepted - why can't they?
3) Passes move forward - why not backward?
4) Passing to the lowest number player - why him?
5) Interceptions by the lowest number player - why him?
6) No interceptions in the Scoring Opp. - why not?

All this can be summed up with one answer - I came up with a set of rules that, in my opinion, reflect football as much as 110 cards and a ball token can, and, at the same time, play fluently. You ask "why these rules, not the other ones", and all I can say is that they simply worked during the game-design process and the ones you are proposing did not.
From what you are writing I suspect that Hat-Trick may be simply not for you and you are looking for completely different kind of footballing experience.


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Jari Kemppainen
Finland
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Hat Trick wrote:
From what you are writing I suspect that Hat-Trick may be simply not for you and you are looking for completely different kind of footballing experience.


Have you ever noticed?
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Vicente Martínez
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Hat Trick wrote:
All this can be summed up with one answer - I came up with a set of rules that, in my opinion, reflect football as much as 110 cards and a ball token can, and, at the same time, play fluently. You ask "why these rules, not the other ones", and all I can say is that they simply worked during the game-design process and the ones you are proposing did not.
From what you are writing I suspect that Hat-Trick may be simply not for you and you are looking for completely different kind of footballing experience.


Thank you very much for your answer. And it is a very good answer.

Perhaps I am too focused on the rules an the "simulation" and forgetting the most important thing: the game is fun, fast, and ok, it is a football based game.

I admit that I am freak of rules and gaeme mechanisms. Of course a football match is very compliated, and this is a card game. Sorry if my questions sounded a bit aggressive. The game is quite fun but I'm looking for a bit more accurate simulation.

Good luck in your gaming adventure, and the following expansions!!

Drawler.

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Benji
Switzerland
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While the mandatory (and always successful) sideway pass may not be 100% thematic, it is essential for the game! It enables you to set up your players so that you opponents options for movement are blocked. There is much more "game" in it because of that rule than there would be without it. Also, if you REALLY want a player to keep the ball for the following action (e.g. Dribbling), this can be done often too (by making him the only player in the line).

To me, this finally is the first football game that actually works, because it plays relatively fast (like sports games should), includes strategy and tough decisions and delivers realistic results.
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Patryk Kowalski
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jari58 wrote:
Have you ever noticed?


I heard some good things about Fuba but never really got to play it. What are the game's strong points?

Drawler wrote:
Good luck in your gaming adventure, and the following expansions!!


Thank you. I'll give my best.

Benji68 wrote:
It enables you to set up your players so that you opponents options for movement are blocked.


Good point, Benji.

And while we're on the subject:
one more thing I wanted to achieve with the compulsory sideways pass was to eliminate repetitiveness. With each of my pre-Hat-Trick home-made games, I'd always managed to find some best moves and, consequently, my matches were becoming too similar. And since my priority was to make matches distinct, I thought that making the sideways pass compulsory may actually prevent players from copying the same moves all the time.

I think with the advent of the expansion it will become even more evident, as many player types trigger their skills when they are on the ball only after the sideways pass. Thus, if it was not mandatory, I am pretty certain every single play would go through the Playmaker as he's very good at dictating play. And while it may be obvious that Playmaker should be doing just that, I wanted to open up the possibility where the game simply passes him by and he has a poor match. Otherwise it would become too robotic in my opinion.

So paradoxically, I believe that making sideways passes mandatory opens up more possibilities - at least on this macro level.
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David King
United Kingdom
Canterbury
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Hello Patryk,

I have been following this game since the recent Kickstarter, so not a long term fan but not a plastic one either!

I have been scanning these forums since receiving the game to gauge opinions and tips, and I was initially quite disappointed in your initial answer to Drawler's question. It seemed quite blunt and dismissive, even to the point of telling him the game wasn't for him/her, when I felt the issues he raised had been things I had been wondering about and I felt he had asked fair enough. Drawler took it well though, so no issue there.

Your latest reply in this thread and the others have been good though and I just wanted to say thanks for being around for questions and explaining the thought process a bit. Your second reply here shares that some of these things like the enforced sideways pass was a balance mechanic which we never got to see you playtest, and insights like that help us appreciate the shape the game is in today. It seems the game is a lot more like a puzzle, and about strategically planning a move, than about space and enforced movement, but I'm sure it's been tested that way to get the best out of it.

I have been making a cheat sheet to help myself and a couple of friends with the rules on the go, and we might even make a Youtube video of a game as it seems a crime that noone has one up yet!

Keep up the good work and if you ever get the chance, I'd love to see the design and testing processes (rejected ideas, potential).
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Patryk Kowalski
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Hi David. Funny thing - while you posted this, I was in the process of posting my thoughts on the mandatory sideways pass. Hat-Trick community really seems to be developing some kind of perfect timing Please find the said post here.

Moominov wrote:
I have been scanning these forums since receiving the game to gauge opinions and tips, and I was initially quite disappointed in your initial answer to Drawler's question. It seemed quite blunt and dismissive, even to the point of telling him the game wasn't for him/her, when I felt the issues he raised had been things I had been wondering about and I felt he had asked fair enough. Drawler took it well though, so no issue there.


I am more than willing to discuss every single aspect of the game design, Drawler's tone, however, put me in a pretty uncomfortable position where instead of discussing, I'd have had to defend my game (to answer charges about lack of logic, realism, etc.) - for a designer it's a suicide. So my options were pretty limited in that situation. If only I'd been asked simple questions "why this" or "why that", I'd have gladly given exhaustive answers. Try me any time.

Moominov wrote:
Your latest reply in this thread and the others have been good though and I just wanted to say thanks for being around for questions and explaining the thought process a bit. Your second reply here shares that some of these things like the enforced sideways pass was a balance mechanic which we never got to see you playtest, and insights like that help us appreciate the shape the game is in today. It seems the game is a lot more like a puzzle, and about strategically planning a move, than about space and enforced movement, but I'm sure it's been tested that way to get the best out of it.


You're right, the game is MUCH more about movement than performing actions (this is the golden phrase I keep repeating while demoing the game ). There are tons of examples, let me give you one - almost every novice player seems to think that Hat-Trick is a low-scoring game. This results from a very simple mechanism - novice players do not know the game well enough so their priority is not to concede. Consequently they do not devote enough players forward thinking that triggering Scoring Opp. is all they need to stand a chance of scoring. However, a Scoring Opp. with no central attackers in the final 2 lines is practically a wasted opportunity. So instead of focusing on reaching the final line, we should be focusing our efforts on positioning our attacking players to both prepare for potential counter-attack AND be ready for the shooting chance.
So, like I said - I love sharing my thoughts about Hat-Trick and working with your feedback to make the game even better. That is why, whenever you want to know something, you will always find me here, ready to share everything I know about the game. The only thing I expect from you (when in doubt about validity of certain rules) is to ask first, judge later.

Moominov wrote:
I have been making a cheat sheet to help myself and a couple of friends with the rules on the go, and we might even make a Youtube video of a game as it seems a crime that noone has one up yet!


And another example of perfect sense of timing, as I have just stayed up late to prepare for shooting a YouTube video of the gameplay tommorow This, however, will be just me playing for both players and sharing my thought process, so any videos of other people are more than welcome. I'd love to finally see somebody play Hat-Trick.
Btw, there are help sheets in the expansion if you need any. I recently wrote about them on our site.

Moominov wrote:
Keep up the good work and if you ever get the chance, I'd love to see the design and testing processes (rejected ideas, potential).


My pleasure. If you still have not seen it, check out the article I wrote some time ago about Hat-Trick in the light of my football-game-making history.
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