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Subject: Understanding compensation (and Loser) correctly rss

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Trevor Slofkosky
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Sorry if this is a noob question, but I can't just can't seem to work this out in my head. For attack vs. negotiate encounters, the rulebook states:
"The player who played the negotiate card loses the encounter
automatically. However, the losing player will get to claim
compensation by taking cards from the belligerent opponent’s
hand. See “Compensation” on page 11."

And then the section on compensation it's referring to states:
"When one player plays a negotiate and his opponent plays an
attack card, the player who played the negotiate card gets to
collect compensation."

My confusion comes from how one section states the person who collects compensation is the losing player, and the other section states the person who collects compensation is the player who played a negotiate. Obviously under normal circumstances they would be the same people, but certain powers such as Pacifist or Loser could change that.

I understand that the rulebook is trying to explain default conditions and that if a game effect contradicts the rulebook, the game effect takes priority. But just which part of the rulebook is being contradicted?

Perhaps what I'm actually misunderstanding is the alien powers?
Loser reverses winners and losers and forces players to play attack cards "if possible". I assume that means that if they aren't able to play attack cards, they're still required to play an encounter card and thus are able to play other encounter cards.

Here's an example of how I assume things work. Loser is going up against Clone (second alien irrelevant). Loser has two ships, Clone has 3 ships. Loser declares an upset, doesn't have any attack cards, and thus plays a negotiate, while Clone plays an attack. Cards are revealed, and after Loser's ability is applied, Loser wins the encounter and Clone loses. Clone now collects compensation because he was the loser and the "type" of encounter they had was negotiate vs. attack. Clone lost 3 ships, and so draws 3 cards from Loser's hand.
Do I have it right?
Edit: Ok so I realized like right after I posted this that one of the "game effects" that could be considered to contradict the rulebook is the negotiate card itself, which says that the person who plays it collect compensation if opposed by an attack.
So I think now how my example would actually work, is that Loser would win and because he played a negotiate against an attack, he collects compensation. However, he didn't lose any ships in the encounter, and so technically he collects compensation, but the number of cards he draws is 0. Is this right?
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Jordan S.
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sceb wrote:
Edit: Ok so I realized like right after I posted this that one of the "game effects" that could be considered to contradict the rulebook is the negotiate card itself, which says that the person who plays it collect compensation if opposed by an attack.
So I think now how my example would actually work, is that Loser would win and because he played a negotiate against an attack, he collects compensation. However, he didn't lose any ships in the encounter, and so technically he collects compensation, but the number of cards he draws is 0. Is this right?

Okay, so without having all of the reference material handy but based on my memory of Loser and the Negotiate rules, I'll say that you are correct. Loser played a Negotiate vs. an Attack, so he would lose the encounter. However, after the cards are revealed, Loser's upset triggers and now he's winning the encounter instead. Then, when the Resolution phase arrives, his Negotiate triggers a call for Compensation. Since Loser lost "0" ships, he therefore collects "0" Compensation.

Edit: Revised my advice below after consulting the wording in the rulebook.
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Jack of Clubs
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Why is there no Word Games Forum or Subdomain?
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There should be a Word Games Subdomain, or at least a Word Games Forum!
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In result that's correct, but by the working of the rules,it's not quite right.

In order to collect compensation, you must:

1) have played a Negotiate, AND
2) have lost the encounter (as a Main Player).

Loser and Pacifist fail on #2, so they don't get compensation. Same for Empath if he chooses to use his power.

Amoeba can play an N, ooze all of its ships out of the encounter, and then collect 0 cards of compensation.

Ethic's power lets it collect compensation without satisfying #1.

Macron collects double consolation (two cards per ship).

Hacker collects (and gives) compensation in an unusual way.
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Just a Bill
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No, I said "oh, brother," not "go hover."
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Thus opineth the Cosmodex:
:compensation: You receive compensation only for ships you actually lose to the warp, not ships that are returning to Zombie colonies, eradicated by Void, captured by Fungus, etc. Before you collect compensation, the other player is allowed to play any cards from his hand that are legally playable at that time. Compensation only becomes due if at least three (and possibly four) conditions are satisfied: (1) you reveal a negotiate card; (2) your opponent reveals an attack card; (3) you lose ships to the warp; and, as at least implied by the rulebook, (4) you lose the encounter. Playing Cards Before: Compensation does not create any kind of "hold" or "freeze" or "lien" on your hand. You are free to use any cards that may be legally played before compensation begins to be collected. So, for instance, you could play a reinforcement card (during the reveal phase) to get it out of your hand before compensation is taken. However, once the opportunity to play such cards has passed and compensation begins, then it is too late. For example, you cannot wait to see if Hacker is going to target you before deciding whether to "dump" your reinforcement cards, because the time to affect encounter totals has already passed.
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Jordan S.
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Okay, so now with the benefit of rulebook in-hand, I'll revise my advice to support Phil and Bill above, using the following reference in the rulebook on page 11 (emphasis mine):

Quote:
Compensation is the term for cards a player gets to steal from his or her opponent after losing an encounter by playing a negotiate vs. the opponent’s attack card.


So, according the definition of Compensation by the rulebook, the player must have lost the encounter to be eligible to collect.
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