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Clank!: A Deck-Building Adventure» Forums » General

Subject: End game question rss

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Alex Limoges
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We might have missed some rule on our first game tonight, but while the early and mid-game was exciting, the end game was strangely gamey.

We were 3 players. I was able to get a bag and then a 20 and a 10 artifact. Another player got the 30. We started to race to the start zone. The other guy was left trying to get the 25 artifact.

Now, once we both got to the start point, we looked at each other. Neither of us two wanted to leave the dungeon, yet, we had to do so at some point. We stayed there 2 turns just trying to buy tomes and score points buying cards. The other guy was still struggling a bit. So I decided to finish, since, well, we wanted to kill the 3rd player, but I was aware it was going to be my doom. The other player just stood at the entrance scoring points. He did not have enough cubes in the bag to be killed by the dragon. Eventually, the 3rd guy died, but the guy at the entrance just stayed until the 4th turn after I left, scoring tons of points...

What did we miss here? It seemed to us genuinely wrong... I understand that to stay outside at the entrance like that, you need to be sure that clanks won't kill you, but he was safe (I would have been too) and the end game was just illogical...

I was looking for some rule that would give any advantage to the first player to leave (except safety from clanks), but no, you get 20 points, and anyone leaving later also gets 20 points and they get to play and buy cards, while you don't. I was looking for automatic clank cubes put into the bag for the remaining players, but there is no such thing...

Did we miss something?
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Jonathan Er
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Yes you only get the 20points for leaving first

Your case seems rare to me as in most of my games (6 games in), usually everyone is at the risk of dying
I would suggest playing on the other side of the board, the danger of death is very apparent as many walkways have the creature symbol which will deal you one damage

Could it be that you were putting black cubes back in the bag when you are not supposed to?
Or did you not increase the dragon rage for each artifacts and dragon egg stolen from the dungeon?
 
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Brian Bowles
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I thought everyone that exits under their own power gets a 20 point bonus?edit: Also, how was he just standing at the entrance? As I understand it, if you draw boots you must move. Was he walking in circles?
 
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Jonathan Er
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shadowsclassic wrote:
I thought everyone that exits under their own power gets a 20 point bonus?edit: Also, how was he just standing at the entrance? As I understand it, if you draw boots you must move. Was he walking in circles?


Sorry, didn't type what I was thinking
Yes 20 points for everyone who leaves, not just the first. Not sure why I said that haha shake

As for the boots, you don't have to use the boots or skill points or sword attacks if you don't want to
Only the action boxes are a must execute
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Richard Smeltzer
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I'm inclined to think you did miss something, because we were close to dying when we left. On the other hand it is possible that just by luck you did not have many cards that produced Clank.

Did you move the dragon token on every time an artifact or dragon egg was picked up? Did you do a dragon attack every time a card was turned over that had a dragon symbol on it?

Did you collect plenty of secrets? These will generally help you score more points rather than just hanging about by the entrance.

Could you have bought crowns or another backpack allowing you to carry another artifact?

Were there any monkey idols still available?

Did you stop moving when you entered a crystal cavern?

What was the final score? On our first game I came second with 100 points, and the winner had 101.
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Tahsin Shamma
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I can see this endgame scenario happening if both players who are about to leave have picked up cards that reduce clank. If those cards come out early and players are always able to get their clank to 1 or 2 when they go in the bag, then I think this can happen.

I think the OP is right that this end can seem gamey, especially if people have constructed similar decks. It's all up to chance at that point.

If no one has focused on high skill point or attack decks, then waiting at the end isn't really worthwhile. More points can be had going after other minor mysteries.
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Alex Limoges
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Hi,

Several questions to answer!

First, we did play on the "easy" side, and yes, the person who was able to stand near the entrance while I was "in the fortress" had cards that reduced clanks and therefore felt (rightly so) that he simply would never die with the dragon. I think we had all the rules right, everything mentioned here by the different people, we did right. Final score, was 126 to 116 and 87.

It was just a first game. It's presomptuous for me to say that something is wrong. Maybe it happened because we played on the easy side, as suggested. It's just that it makes sense, if you are not too injured, to stay at the entrance if someone got in or if you don't think leaving would kill the other players, if only to buy the 7 VP tomes and other cards. If it were to happen again, solutions could include:

- Starting with more clank cubes in the bag for everyone? This would always make it dangerous to stay outside, but could also make the game harder.
- Taking away some tome cards from the reserve, so they run out faster and players won't stay just for them (but then, it would still be efficient to stay for regular VP cards)
- Reward the first player to come out with, say, 10 VP in some fashion (gold?). Still won't make it less interesting to sit at the entrance if someone is out already.
- In addition to having the dragon attacks, players add clank (one cube?) every turn they stay in when it comes to the turn of the player who exited (This will make end game deadlier)
- Players who did exit the dungeon take normal turns (i.e. play their cards) in addition to making dragon attacks (it does not work thematically, but otherwise solves the issue entirely)
- Players who exited the dungeon get 3 gold every turn until everyone runs out (partly solves the issue, but may make the quick artifact strategy more efficient).
- Tomes can only be bought in the deep part of the dungeon (partly solves the issue, and it makes sense thematically)
- Once someone leaves the dungeon, no tomes can be bought and the dungeon row ceases to be replenished.
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Richard Smeltzer
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Solipsiste wrote:
First, we did play on the "easy" side, and yes, the person who was able to stand near the entrance while I was "in the fortress" had cards that reduced clanks and therefore felt (rightly so) that he simply would never die with the dragon.

Which makes me wonder why weren't you close to dying?

Flipping to the other side of the board makes it harder to get to the big artifacts. If I were you I would try this before changing any of the rules.

I also still suspect there would have been more points available somewhere if you went to get them instead of marking the exit.
 
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Alex Limoges
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Bagpuss42 wrote:
Solipsiste wrote:
First, we did play on the "easy" side, and yes, the person who was able to stand near the entrance while I was "in the fortress" had cards that reduced clanks and therefore felt (rightly so) that he simply would never die with the dragon.

Which makes me wonder why weren't you close to dying?

Flipping to the other side of the board makes it harder to get to the big artifacts. If I were you I would try this before changing any of the rules.

I also still suspect there would have been more points available somewhere if you went to get them instead of marking the exit.


I would have died, had I stayed for several turns outside. I had lost 3 cubes, because I had a chance to heal earlier. The other player was able to play this game of waiting indefinitely (until forced to stop), but as for me, I could have played it a little longer (mostly because no one had left the dungeon before I did, so the pressure was less) but not indefinitely.

As I said, I did not play enough to change any rule, and had the intention to play more before doing anything. Still, among all the options I mentioned, I would be curious to see what happens if you simply say that secret tomes are only "buyable" in the depths. Not much of a change, and it makes the "waiting at the entrance" issue much less problematic, at least, much less interesting. The other player really only won because he was able to stay there for several turns while all I did was draw cubes every turn that would not hurt him, unable to get any more points.

One remark that I made to myself is that I believe that getting clank reducing cards on turn 1 or 2 is maybe too powerful. It seems to me that the player in question had very few cubes in the bag because he took one of those cards very early and was able to avoid the effect of the 2 stumble cards while we were putting cubes in the bag regularly.

Then again, I will play more, I am just curious to see if this issue happened to others... and if it occurred because we are doing something wrong...
 
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Richard Smeltzer
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Solipsiste wrote:
One remark that I made to myself is that I believe that getting clank reducing cards on turn 1 or 2 is maybe too powerful. It seems to me that the player in question had very few cubes in the bag because he took one of those cards very early and was able to avoid the effect of the 2 stumble cards while we were putting cubes in the bag regularly.

Yes, this obviously helped the other guy a lot. It didn't happen when I played and I think there's relatively few Clank reducing cards, but in a deck-building game with a random changing trade row there's always a danger someone will manage to pick up an early card that gives them a powerful advantage.
 
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A P
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Exact same thing happened to us in a four player game (on mapside where markets were all spread out). Everyone was scratching their head about why you would want to leave the dungeon and forego all those extra turns that your competitors were going to get. And of course the first person to leave got crushed on the scoring. It is a huge disadvantage to be out of the game for that many turns.

I think there are three factors at play here. First, aversion to generating clank. In our first couple games, everyone avoided anything that had to do with clank. Couple that with weeding stumble cards out of your hand or clank reducing cards, it simply is not an issue. Second, the card distribution in the draw deck can lead to lots of rounds where dragon cards may not be drawn. Third, if you get a pretty even draw distribution of colored cubes, the wounds are spread out across everyone and that slows down the need to exit the dungeon.

I question the wisdom of leaving the dungeon first. Between major and minor tokens, better artifacts, monkey tokens, card purchases, etc., there are lots of points that can be generated in those extra turns to catch up on those 20 points -- and you may not even be out those 20 points. Seems to me that the only reason to pop the end game is if you break way out ahead (unlikely in a 4 person game with competent people (I find one person falls behind rather than pulls ahead)) or the game has run long enough that everyone is getting close to death.

The game is certainly fun but I felt like I was missing a rule or two somewhere. I had a hard time wrapping my head around the fact that the person to escape the dungeon no longer drew cards (while everyone was buying Tomes every other turn) and that his pulled cubes were set aside but new cubes were not drawn. I need more plays I guess.
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Andrew Sheehan
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Hey guys, I'd like to offer another possible solution to this issue: After someone enters the countdown track (either by KO or by exiting the dungeon), incrementally decrease the reward for exiting by 5 points per turn. The first player to voluntarily exit receives 20 points as usual, and so would anyone else who emerges while that player is on the first space of the countdown track. In subsequent turns, anyone who exits while the player is on the second space of the track receives 15 points, 10 points while he's on the third, and only 5 points while he's on the fourth. Players would still be able to stay in the dungeon for the final turns to try to earn more points, but it would essentially be at a cost of 5 points per turn, so there's actually a meaningful decision to be made here: do you exit the dungeon and cash in on the guaranteed points, or do you stick around and hope to get more than 5 points per turn while avoiding getting KO'd by the dragon? I haven't played the game a ton yet, but this seems like it would be a viable way to take away the obvious disadvantage associated with being the first to leave. Any feedback would be appreciated. Thanks!
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Richard Smeltzer
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In my opinion the answer to the disadvantage associated with being first to leave is: Don't be first to leave. If you're not in any real danger from the dragon keep exploring, picking up secrets and monkey idols, and see if you can gain anything more from the market.
 
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Andrew Sheehan
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It's a good general strategy, but if all players are thinking this way and in no danger of getting KO'd, then no one will ever want to end the game, because it leaves the door wide open for the other player(s) to rack up several more turns worth of points. If there's no benefit to leaving first, then I can see it leading to a lot of stalemate situations, or at least some very anticlimactic, drawn-out endings.
 
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Richard Smeltzer
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Colossus103 wrote:
It's a good general strategy, but if all players are thinking this way and in no danger of getting KO'd, then no one will ever want to end the game, because it leaves the door wide open for the other player(s) to rack up several more turns worth of points. If there's no benefit to leaving first, then I can see it leading to a lot of stalemate situations, or at least some very anticlimactic, drawn-out endings.

Really? It's not that easy to avoid getting Clank. It seems unlikely to me that all players can remain that safe for long.
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Andrew Sheehan
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Bagpuss42 wrote:
Colossus103 wrote:
It's a good general strategy, but if all players are thinking this way and in no danger of getting KO'd, then no one will ever want to end the game, because it leaves the door wide open for the other player(s) to rack up several more turns worth of points. If there's no benefit to leaving first, then I can see it leading to a lot of stalemate situations, or at least some very anticlimactic, drawn-out endings.

Really? It's not that easy to avoid getting Clank. It seems unlikely to me that all players can remain that safe for long.


Admittedly, I haven't played many games so far, so I can't speak to the frequency at which the situation comes up (I'm guessing most often during 2-player games), but it's clear that it does occur sometimes, based on the posts above. It seems we can't rely on players being close to death every game. Maybe I'm being picky, but in my opinion, rules aren't well-written if they only make sense in "most situations", so that's why I think an amendment is needed.
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Richard Smeltzer
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Colossus103 wrote:
Admittedly, I haven't played many games so far, so I can't speak to the frequency at which the situation comes up (I'm guessing most often during 2-player games), but it's clear that it does occur sometimes, based on the posts above. It seems we can't rely on players being close to death every game. Maybe I'm being picky, but in my opinion, rules aren't well-written if they only make sense in "most situations", so that's why I think an amendment is needed.

Well, the OP admitted that he was forced to leave due to too much damage.

In my opinion the trouble here is that people think "run in, grab an artifact, get out" should be a winning strategy. It isn't. This is a deck-building game and filling your deck with treasure cards (most of which give you clark) and leaving as late as possible is going to beat that.
 
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Alex Limoges
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Richard,

I was forced to leave at "some" point, but I could have stayed on the first location before the exit for several more turns. This is what the other player did too. It made no sense. We stood there at the entrance playing cards to buy tomes. Dragons "could" have killed me, but then again, for him to even be a threat, you need to actually buy cards in the row, and the other player at the entrance and me were staying there buying tomes in the reserve until it ran out... the third player alone was buying cards in the row. I got out, thinking it just made no sense at some point, and the other player won because he stayed 4 more turns and made VP buying cards in the row because nothing could have killed him...
 
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Joseph Kennedy
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I've only played 2 2-player games so far but games need to be played multiple times before making rules changes I think. Our second game was very different to our first game. Different cards came out, a lot more dragon attacks from cards, different draws from our decks, most artifacts were deep; all sorts of differences made for a very different game and strategy.
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Nate Dalton
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So there is something that isn't in the rules but has been said on many occasions. When someone dies they get sent to the zone that starts the countdown. That way you can't just sit in there but that dying person triggers the end game.
 
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Ben G
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ndalton7 wrote:
So there is something that isn't in the rules but has been said on many occasions. When someone dies they get sent to the zone that starts the countdown. That way you can't just sit in there but that dying person triggers the end game.


??

From the Rulebook under "Step 5: The End of the Line":
Quote:
In addition, the first time any player leaves the dungeon or is knocked out, that player moves their pawn to the first
(leftmost) space of the Countdown Track near the entrance to the dungeon. On that player’s next turn, instead of taking
a normal turn, they move their pawn forward one space on the Countdown Track and execute that space’s effects. (Other
players who later leave the dungeon or get knocked out do not use the Countdown Track.)

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Joe Chang
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It's luck of the cards really. Sometimes the Dragon attacks a lot, sometimes not. Sometimes Dungeon Row is crap, sometimes it's got everything you want. I found that on the easy side, if you go quite boots heavy, it's easier to win.
 
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