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EuroFront II» Forums » Rules

Subject: Siege Supply rss

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John Spicer
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One last query!

Does siege supply only apply to a unit in a port (I think it does)? Or can a unit outside the port trace siege supply to the port, while the unit(s) in the port trace supply 2 hexes to another supply source (1 in MF)?

I think the intent is that siege supply can only be applied to a unit in the port under siege. But I've had this happen in the past too, and the rules don't say that the alternative is not OK.

John
 
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Gustavo
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john s wrote:
One last query!

Does siege supply only apply to a unit in a port (I think it does)? Or can a unit outside the port trace siege supply to the port, while the unit(s) in the port trace supply 2 hexes to another supply source (1 in MF)?

I think the intent is that siege supply can only be applied to a unit in the port under siege. But I've had this happen in the past too, and the rules don't say that the alternative is not OK.

John


Hi John,

There is a discussion in the Eastfront forums about this. My take is that only the port unit is supplied, whether at 1 CV or full strength (Naval Supremacy), and supply does not extend 2 hexes away:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/328155/siege-supply

I have a parallel question however. WF rules 15.52 say that Beachheads can provide supply to 2 adjacent hexes even if embattled (friendly battle). Why is that engaged BHs can provide such supply and engaged ports can't?
 
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John Spicer
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Hi Gustavo,

Taken a look but that thread doesn't answer my question directly, although Craig's explanation of the principle (which is kind of what I assumed was the logic) means that only a unit actually in the engaged port hex can benefit from siege supply.

The specific from a previous EuF game was a British unit 1 unit west of Tobruk, in a hex where the Axis were the original defender, tracing siege supply to Tobruk (which was engaged by an Axis unit), and the British unit in Tobruk tracing supply one hex south east of Tobruk to an engaged hex where the British were the original defender.

So the British unit in Tobruk was clearly fine for supply. The uncertainty is whether the unit west of Tobruk can use the siege supply that wasn't being used by the unit in Tobruk.

But taking Craig's explanation in the other thread I would say the answer is no. The port is under fire and it therefore cannot be used to provide supplies to a unit 60-90 miles west of it (in another hex in game terms).

My more experienced opponent thought otherwise and that's what we went with, even though I wasn't comfortable with it (and it made quite a difference as it meant the German unit SE of Tobruk was OOS as a result).

The rule most probably needs a line added saying that only a unit in the port can benefit from siege supply to make it completely clear.



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John Spicer
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With regards to why BH's can act as a supply source for units up to 2 hexes away even when engaged (EuF 15.63), when a port cannot, I'd guess that is because of all the naval capacity offshore that could lay intensive fire on any enemy units in range, and the fact that the offloading capacity could move around a bit i.e. to a beach out of range of enemy artillery, in a way a permanent port could not. With the extra resources a way could be (was) found to keep units supplied.

I also suspect at this scale it is an essential rule to make invasions workable in the face of enemy resistance, otherwise you'd be stuck on the beaches and unable to move off them.
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RedPlanet
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from the EuroFront rules ......

15.41 Siege Supply
Sea Supply to an engaged port called
Siege Supply, can support one defending
unit, at cadre strength (correction).
Excess units/cvs suffer Supply Attrition.
Under Naval Supremacy (15.8), one
unit at any cv is supported.
Under Naval and Air Supremacy
[13.32], any number of units can be
supported. The engaged port serves a
Rail/Sea Supply Source, to which units can
trace a Supply Line (10.4).


so I think that even though it doesn't say 2 hex supply length, it is the same for friendly engaged ports too.

15.63
In friendly controlled hexes (even
if embattled), BHs act as Supply Sources
(to which friendly units can trace 2 hex
supply lines).


 
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Gustavo
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BlackMass wrote:

from the EuroFront rules ......

15.41 Siege Supply
Sea Supply to an engaged port called
Siege Supply, can support one defending
unit, at cadre strength (correction).
Excess units/cvs suffer Supply Attrition.
Under Naval Supremacy (15.8), one
unit at any cv is supported.
Under Naval and Air Supremacy
[13.32], any number of units can be
supported. The engaged port serves a
Rail/Sea Supply Source, to which units can
trace a Supply Line (10.4).


so I think that even though it doesn't say 2 hex supply length, it is the same for friendly engaged ports too.

15.63
In friendly controlled hexes (even
if embattled), BHs act as Supply Sources
(to which friendly units can trace 2 hex
supply lines).




If you look at the way the paragraphs are structured in the Eurofront rules, it seems clear that the port can only be considered a supply source when engaged if under Naval and Air Supremacy:

"Sea Supply to an engaged port called
Siege Supply, can support one defending
unit, at cadre strength (correction).
Excess units/cvs suffer Supply Attrition.

(new paragraph)
Under Naval Supremacy (15.8), one
unit at any cv is supported.

(new paragraph)
Under Naval and Air Supremacy
[13.32], any number of units can be
supported. The engaged port serves a
Rail/Sea Supply Source, to which units can
trace a Supply Line (10.4)"

 
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John Spicer
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So once you gain control of a hex that has a beachhead in it, even if it later becomes embattled again, then other units can trace a 2 hex supply line to it. That's clear.

And interpreting that into the real world the enemy have been driven at least 30 miles from the BH so the capacity there can now operate unimpeded and there is lots of naval firepower around to ensure it stays that way.

But I cannot see where it says that an engaged port ever allows a 2 hex supply line to be traced to it. 15.83 says any number of units can be supplied if there is both naval and air supremacy, but I take that to mean in the hex, not beyond it - it's just a progression from only naval supremacy as per 10.8.

In the real world there are not the naval assets deployed as there are with a beachhead, so it makes sense that an embattled port is less capable than a BH (at least to me).

 
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Gustavo
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john s wrote:
So once you gain control of a hex that has a beachhead in it, even if it later becomes embattled again, then other units can trace a 2 hex supply line to it. That's clear.

And interpreting that into the real world the enemy have been driven at least 30 miles from the BH so the capacity there can now operate unimpeded and there is lots of naval firepower around to ensure it stays that way.

But I cannot see where it says that an engaged port ever allows a 2 hex supply line to be traced to it. 15.83 says any number of units can be supplied if there is both naval and air supremacy, but I take that to mean in the hex, not beyond it - it's just a progression from only naval supremacy as per 10.8.

In the real world there are not the naval assets deployed as there are with a beachhead, so it makes sense that an embattled port is less capable than a BH (at least to me).



Hi John,

The last paragraph of the rules I've quoted (15.41)say "Under Naval and Air Supremacy [13.32], any number of units can be supported. The engaged port serves a Rail/Sea Supply Source, to which units can trace a Supply Line (10.4)" My understanding is that units tracing a Supply line must be located in a different hex than the port, otherwise there is no line to be traced... Since Supply Lines are always 2 hexes long (except for MF I guess?), there is no need to specify the 2-hex distance IMO.

In other words, by the way the rules are worded/paragraphs structured, my interpretation is as follows:

Engaged Port, no supremacy: supply to 1 unit in the port at 1CV
Engaged Port, Naval Supremacy: supply to 1 unit in the port at any strength
Engaged Port, Naval and Air Supremacy: regular Railhead support (that is, supports any amount of units in the hex and 2 adjacent hexes).
 
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John Spicer
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Hi Gustavo,

I can see your reasoning based on the way the rules are written, but I don't think it is the intent.

Craig has made it clear on other threads that the special privileges of BH's are due to the naval presence associated with an invasion and it's aftermath. Which is clearly not relevant to a normal port, so I cannot see why a port would suddenly gain these special powers.

And the way it is written is progressing from cadre to one unit to all units (all within the engaged hex).

So I would disagree with your conclusion, as I think the intent is what matters.

Would need Craig to comment to settle it one way or another though!

John
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RedPlanet
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let me play the devil here .......

the presence of a port, with more advanced features than a BH, require less naval forces to deliver the same volume. where do these extra ships go?

then again, the associated Amphib in a BH gets DF, due to the BH effort. But nobody else in the BH does .....

anyway, it seems to me that a port, extinguished of German defenders, can NOT be economically REINVADED by Jerry. (Suicidally yes, mostly)

I can see the opportunity may arise, but on the whole, once Jerry has lost territory in the West S'44 - it's all traffic east.


Hmmm , what might the oracle say?


 
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John Spicer
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Totally agree that by summer 44 it's irrelevant in the context of the game, whichever way you interpret the rule - the Germans will never manage to raise an attack to get back into an occupied Allied port that is the sole source of Allied supply (if it ever happened what on earth were the Allies doing/ what kind of crazy game is it!?).

So to leave that diversion and go back to the original question.....

No naval supremacy, never mind Allied air power. Can siege supply be traced to a unit outside the embattled port, or is siege supply only applicable to a unit in the port?

I've had an experienced player saying it can be, but I think that's not the intent, although it's not specifically forbidden by the rules as written.
 
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RedPlanet
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Quote:
No naval supremacy, never mind Allied air power. Can siege supply be traced to a unit outside the embattled port, or is siege supply only applicable to a unit in the port?


Only 1 unit in the port gets siege supply.

Never heard of it any other way.
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