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Subject: October update from One Small Step rss

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Pone McPoneface
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Received the company newsletter on October 22, 2016 and at the very bottom was this update for High Frontier, 3rd edition.

Quote:
High Frontier Update

Finally, after a bewildering amount of back and forth that took more time than we could have imagined, we have approved for production a set of pre-press proofs from the printer. Next step is a production proof (which we hope goes according to schedule this time).

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Will H.
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1. Why no Kickstarter update?

2. Why not share the proofs?

3. Why no schedule for production proofs?

Another update with no new information.
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Pone McPoneface
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gar0u wrote:
1. Why no Kickstarter update?

2. Why not share the proofs?

3. Why no schedule for production proofs?

Another update with no new information.


Hello. I received a Kickstarter update 2 hours after receipt of the newsletter. The Kickstarter update is the same as the newsletter quote verbatim.
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Michael Gerstbrein
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gar0u wrote:
1. Why no Kickstarter update?

2. Why not share the proofs?

3. Why no schedule for production proofs?

Another update with no new information.


1. As mentioned, it was done shortly after.

2. They are ordering the pre=press proofs. So what can they share right now when they just ordered them?

3. Without number 2 above, what schedule are you hoping for?

I've backed hundreds of KS's and I've never quite come across a group so whiney as this one. Being over a year delay is not anything new to me. Set it and forget it. It gets here when it gets here. And if it doesn't then life still goes on. if $69-$99 spent over a year ago is so vital for existence, then you should never have spent it.
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Kristabelle Du Bast
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gersh77 wrote:
gar0u wrote:
1. Why no Kickstarter update?

2. Why not share the proofs?

3. Why no schedule for production proofs?

Another update with no new information.


1. As mentioned, it was done shortly after.

2. They are ordering the pre=press proofs. So what can they share right now when they just ordered them?

3. Without number 2 above, what schedule are you hoping for?

I've backed hundreds of KS's and I've never quite come across a group so whiney as this one. Being over a year delay is not anything new to me. Set it and forget it. It gets here when it gets here. And if it doesn't then life still goes on. if $69-$99 spent over a year ago is so vital for existence, then you should never have spent it.

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Cole Wehrle
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gar0u wrote:
2. Why not share the proofs?


Panda uses digital prepress proofs so there's nothing really to share. All you'd get are a bunch of extremely large pdfs with all manner of registration marks etc. There's no reason to share them.

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Will H.
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Thanks, Cole. I assumed Ares/OSS would have sent some sort of PDFs to Panda, or that Panda would have sent some sort of printed material back to Ares/OSS.

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Eric Stolar
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gersh77 wrote:

I've backed hundreds of KS's and I've never quite come across a group so whiney as this one. Being over a year delay is not anything new to me. Set it and forget it. It gets here when it gets here. And if it doesn't then life still goes on. if $69-$99 spent over a year ago is so vital for existence, then you should never have spent it.


As someone that has backed over 100 projects myself:
Ares has caused the animosity in the KS. This is 100% on them.
There will always be a vocal minority in any project that's delayed that complains about said delays. That is NOT what is happening here.

Examples

They refused to provide the P&P files.
This caused a massive delay in the project that was ENTIRELY avoidable.
Explanation: When they finally did share the rule books 2 months later massive errors were found. Ares was silent on this for almost another 2 months and when they did admit the problem it required over a month to fix. All of this could have been avoided had they involved backers in the process instead of trying to hide things from us.

They have been extremely infrequent in their updates.

They have complained about having to make updates and frequently the updates have a whiny or condescending tone.
You mention the backers are whiny, I have never seen a KS that was run by an established company (OSS/Ares) act so unprofessional.

They have complained about the complaining and stated they don't understand why people are upset. This despite the majority of the vocal backers making it VERY clear they want more frequent/through updates and they would be happy.

They said they finally "got the massage" and would communicate more frequently (April 4th). This was followed by releasing the pdf (April 16th) of the rules but otherwise 2 months of silence. (next update was June 4th to state the rule book was in such poor state it needed massive work)

They have at best misrepresented progress at worst outright lied about progress of the project in multiple updates.
Examples: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/highfrontier/high-front...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/highfrontier/high-front...

Sorry but if you can't understand why people are upset with Ares then you have your head firmly planted up your

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Michael Gerstbrein
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NegativeZer0 wrote:
gersh77 wrote:

I've backed hundreds of KS's and I've never quite come across a group so whiney as this one. Being over a year delay is not anything new to me. Set it and forget it. It gets here when it gets here. And if it doesn't then life still goes on. if $69-$99 spent over a year ago is so vital for existence, then you should never have spent it.


Sorry but if you can't understand why people are upset with Ares then you have your head firmly planted up your



Let me just check my post again... Nope, don't see anything in it about not understanding if someone is upset.

I said "whiney".

Finally getting more updates and that isn't good enough. Whine, whine, whine.

Be upset with Ares. Nothing is stopping you. Just stop bitching.
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Eric Stolar
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gersh77 wrote:
NegativeZer0 wrote:
gersh77 wrote:

I've backed hundreds of KS's and I've never quite come across a group so whiney as this one. Being over a year delay is not anything new to me. Set it and forget it. It gets here when it gets here. And if it doesn't then life still goes on. if $69-$99 spent over a year ago is so vital for existence, then you should never have spent it.


Sorry but if you can't understand why people are upset with Ares then you have your head firmly planted up your



Let me just check my post again... Nope, don't see anything in it about not understanding if someone is upset.

I said "whiney".

Finally getting more updates and that isn't good enough. Whine, whine, whine.

Be upset with Ares. Nothing is stopping you. Just stop bitching.


It's not being whiny to question why they had not yet updated the KS considering at the time he said that they had still not posted the update and in previus instances they waited weeks to do so.

It's not being whiny to request proof considering this is now the 3rd/4th time they are claiming "everything is at the printers"

It's not being winy to ask for a estimated timeline after the pre-production proofs are approved. At that point it truly is in the hands of Panda. So unlike before when Panda had to wait and communicate back and forth with Ares they now only have to produce the proofs and they absolutely do provide a schedule for this.

And finally it's not whiny to point out after close to two months of silence they have yet again provided a bare minimum of effort and details in their update.
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Michael Gerstbrein
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NegativeZer0 wrote:
And finally it's not whiny to point out after close to two months of silence...


3 updates in June
4 Updates in July
3 Updates in August
3 Updates in September
1 Update in October

So 4 updates in the last 2 months. 14 in the past 6 months.

Like I said, they start giving more updates and it still isn't good enough. Whine, whine, whine.

I get people are upset. I'm not trying to belittle their anger at how they feel this process has gone. I'm not praising Ares in their handling of this. Yes, every KS has issues and there are people who are upset. I'm pointing out that in all my KS experience, I find this group to be whiney. I'm all for justified arguments on the missteps and failures, but must every thread be the place to air ones grievances? The OP was nice enough to share an update that not everyone who is a KS backer might have been able to see. Thank you! That is awesome! But within an hour and a half and by the second reply, the bitching starts. To me, that is whining. I RARELY say anything on the internet in regards to crap like this. To me it is a "set it and forget it" situation. It is just getting to be a bit much. Now I've derailed this thread beyond its original intention. For that I apologize.
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Brendan McGuire
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As one of the whiners, I want to mention that my frustration is neither about the delay nor the quantity of updates; rather, it was about the passing blame onto their (then) mysterious production company aling with an observation that suggests that they don't know what they as doing.

I haven't backed as many KS as others, but if this is the worst whining then that in itself is fairly telling as to how the campaign is being run. I look at the V-commandos as a measure. It started about the same time as this one and has been delayed for just as long, but I feel no need to complain because there is evidence of them moving forward.

That said, I do recognize my whining as such and trust me I am quite annoyed with myself as those I've annoyed. I can at least admit that I feel confident that it will get produced by someone at some point, so I think I can get on board with the advice to accept this KS as an "is what it is" situation.
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Lou Lessing
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Pone4games wrote:
Received the company newsletter on October 22, 2016 and at the very bottom was this update for High Frontier, 3rd edition.

Quote:
High Frontier Update

Finally, after a bewildering amount of back and forth that took more time than we could have imagined, we have approved for production a set of pre-press proofs from the printer. Next step is a production proof (which we hope goes according to schedule this time).



So... the files are at the printers?
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Doug Bloomer
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brisingre wrote:
Pone4games wrote:
Received the company newsletter on October 22, 2016 and at the very bottom was this update for High Frontier, 3rd edition.

Quote:
High Frontier Update

Finally, after a bewildering amount of back and forth that took more time than we could have imagined, we have approved for production a set of pre-press proofs from the printer. Next step is a production proof (which we hope goes according to schedule this time).



So... the files are at the printers?


Where else would they be?
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Paul Agapow
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gersh77 wrote:
Like I said, they start giving more updates and it still isn't good enough. Whine, whine, whine.

I get people are upset. I'm not trying to belittle their anger at how they feel this process has gone.


If you're not trying to belittle people, I'd suggest that your use of the word "whine" is counter-productive.
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Michael Gerstbrein
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outlier wrote:
gersh77 wrote:
Like I said, they start giving more updates and it still isn't good enough. Whine, whine, whine.

I get people are upset. I'm not trying to belittle their anger at how they feel this process has gone.


If you're not trying to belittle people, I'd suggest that your use of the word "whine" is counter-productive.


You are correct. My apologies.
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Will H.
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gersh77 wrote:
The OP was nice enough to share an update that not everyone who is a KS backer might have been able to see. Thank you! That is awesome! But within an hour and a half and by the second reply, the bitching starts.


Sorry, but that's not whining or bitching. It is three very clear examples of requests for better information in the updates to AVOID the complaining you are complaining about.

I really don't understand why fans of the game turn on each other like this. It's just sad.

The backers have been very vocal about what information they are looking for (proof), not just more frequent updates.

Not every Kickstarter has these types of problems. It's not a whining group of backers, it is a poorly run campaign.
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Brian Jurney
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Whats a reasonable timeline here now that its in pre-production? 6 months? 12 months? I'm really not sure how long these things take once they are in this stage.
 
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Will H.
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There are other BGG users that seem to have some industry experience and have shared insight in other threads. Hoping they weigh in here...
 
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Cole Wehrle
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jurney85 wrote:
Whats a reasonable timeline here now that its in pre-production? 6 months? 12 months? I'm really not sure how long these things take once they are in this stage.


gar0u wrote:
There are other BGG users that seem to have some industry experience and have shared insight in other threads. Hoping they weigh in here...


There are a few important unknowns. Usually the production of a board game only takes a week or two. However, the factory will have a queue and HF will have to wait its turn. Secondly, I don't know how complicated this particular production might be factory-side (this can come up and cause delay). Third, I'm not sure exactly what the shipping arrangements are. So, there are a lot of hurdles.

But, if you want an uninformed ball park based on prior experience following and participating in projects like this, I'd say it'll be 3-6 months before it hits your doorstep.
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Eric Stolar
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Cole Wehrle wrote:
jurney85 wrote:
Whats a reasonable timeline here now that its in pre-production? 6 months? 12 months? I'm really not sure how long these things take once they are in this stage.


gar0u wrote:
There are other BGG users that seem to have some industry experience and have shared insight in other threads. Hoping they weigh in here...


There are a few important unknowns. Usually the production of a board game only takes a week or two. However, the factory will have a queue and HF will have to wait its turn. Secondly, I don't know how complicated this particular production might be factory-side (this can come up and cause delay). Third, I'm not sure exactly what the shipping arrangements are. So, there are a lot of hurdles.

But, if you want an uninformed ball park based on prior experience following and participating in projects like this, I'd say it'll be 3-6 months before it hits your doorstep.


I would go more 6-8 months.

1 - There has been a constant bottle neck somewhere in this project. My guess is it has something to do with the relation between Ares and OSS and how they communicate. I don't foresee this bottle neck going away.

2- Pre production proofs have to be approved before the game moves to actual production. If there are any issues this can mean LONG delays depending on what the issue is. I have seen this step alone take months and in one case over a year with other projects. Now that's not the norm by any means but the point is projects can languish in this step if issues arise.

3- Assuming NO issues with the pre production the game now gets scheduled for a printing slot. A conservative estimate puts this at at least a month from now. And that is for the START of printing process with a few weeks of work before everything is printed and packed and ready to ship.

4- Chinese New Year - FUCK ALL THE SCHEDULES if we don't get printing done before Chinese New Year. The entire damn country shuts down. Add 1-2 months AT LEAST due to back logged work.

5- Shipping by boat is notoriously unreliable. All kinds of delays can happen that are legitimately NOT Are's/OSS's fault.

So don't expect this to suddenly fast track and be done in no time. There are still A LOT of hurdles to clear.
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Cole Wehrle
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NegativeZer0 wrote:
Cole Wehrle wrote:
jurney85 wrote:
Whats a reasonable timeline here now that its in pre-production? 6 months? 12 months? I'm really not sure how long these things take once they are in this stage.


gar0u wrote:
There are other BGG users that seem to have some industry experience and have shared insight in other threads. Hoping they weigh in here...


There are a few important unknowns. Usually the production of a board game only takes a week or two. However, the factory will have a queue and HF will have to wait its turn. Secondly, I don't know how complicated this particular production might be factory-side (this can come up and cause delay). Third, I'm not sure exactly what the shipping arrangements are. So, there are a lot of hurdles.

But, if you want an uninformed ball park based on prior experience following and participating in projects like this, I'd say it'll be 3-6 months before it hits your doorstep.


I would go more 6-8 months.

1 - There has been a constant bottle neck somewhere in this project. My guess is it has something to do with the relation between Ares and OSS and how they communicate. I don't foresee this bottle neck going away.

2- Pre production proofs have to be approved before the game moves to actual production. If there are any issues this can mean LONG delays depending on what the issue is. I have seen this step alone take months and in one case over a year with other projects. Now that's not the norm by any means but the point is projects can languish in this step if issues arise.

3- Assuming NO issues with the pre production the game now gets scheduled for a printing slot. A conservative estimate puts this at at least a month from now. And that is for the START of printing process with a few weeks of work before everything is printed and packed and ready to ship.

4- Chinese New Year - FUCK ALL THE SCHEDULES if we don't get printing done before Chinese New Year. The entire damn country shuts down. Add 1-2 months AT LEAST due to back logged work.

5- Shipping by boat is notoriously unreliable. All kinds of delays can happen that are legitimately NOT Are's/OSS's fault.

So don't expect this to suddenly fast track and be done in no time. There are still A LOT of hurdles to clear.


All good points.
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Will H.
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Thanks, Eric and Cole. This is all good information. Some of it I have gleaned from backing other projects, but not all of it, and not all in one spot like this.

[Spoiler tag for whining so you can skip it...]

Spoiler (click to reveal)
My complaint is that we're left to discover all this "on our own" instead of it being shared by Ares/OSS in campaign updates. One could argue they don't know either, but that inexperience just highlights the problem.


I think Chinese New Year is in late January and lasts 3-4 weeks.
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gar0u wrote:
It's not a whining group of backers, it is a poorly run campaign.


The two are not mutually exclusive.
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