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Darklight: Memento Mori» Forums » General

Subject: Come on, sell me to this game rss

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Man, I just learned about this game two days ago. The minis look cool and the campaign system sounds interesting but it can have a lot of issues if not tested well.

Here is your chance, you can make me spending my money on this game by telling me why.

My problem is, that I already have
- 2 D%D Boardgames
- SDE: Forgotten King
at home and I already backed
- Sword & Sorcery
- Massive Darkness
- SDE: Legends
- Vampire Hunters
- Deep Madness
- Dark Souls
and there is
- Folklore
- Darklight
that sound interesting plus
- Rise of Moloch
- Mythic Battles Pantheon
that are upcoming and looking cool.

That's A LOT games and I feel that I have no real need to get more. But cool minis always get my attention and if there is a real cool game in the box I'm willing to spend my money.

My thoughts so far:
When we feel chibi, we're playing SDE.
When I have a group in my house that want to play a fast and easy dungeon crawler we can choose from D&D, Massive Darkness, Dark Souls and Vampire Hunters.
When we want some more rules and options we play Sword & Sorcery.
I'm backing Deep Madness mainly because it looks very cool and has a lot of minis for the money. Said that I'm a bit unsure if I should drop it.
Rise of Moloch is Steampunk. I like Steampunk and I have no game in this setting.
I saw MB: Pantheon at Essen and the minis looked... wow. I have no clue about the game and I just hope that it will be good and not too expensive.

If you compare to the list you see that I have no thoughts on
- Folklore
- Darklight

Folklore is a bit tricky to me because when getting it I can simply not justify taking something else than the $299 pledge (I can't get the add ons without paying more because of the shipping costs). That's a lot of money for a game with that little information on some core mechanics.

Now we're coming to Darklight. What's in that box that I'll don't have with the other games? Dropping Deep Madness for this is an option - but why? Come on, tell me why I should. I need at least one good reason.
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Allan Rodda
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Randomised dungeons mean you aren't reliant on the publisher producing more scenarios once you've played through the ones in the book.

The in-depth campaign system is really the selling point for the game though. If you aren't interested in something like that then this game isn't going to provide you with anything you can't get in one of the other games in your collection.
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Highlord Tamburlaine
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I've backed or owned just about everything you listed as well, but these are my favorite types of games so my opinion is probably a bit biased.

Darklight does have the persistent characters like Warhammer Quest and Shadows of Brimstone has, where you can carry over things from one quest to another. This might require a bit more book keeping than a game like Massive Darkness, which is supposed to have the new campaign mode included (whereas this had such a mode built in from the beginning).

It seems a lot more open ended than Sword & Sorcery as well, which I'd say is probably comparable in terms of complexity (if not more so, judging from my experience with the designers' previous game Galaxy Defenders).

Part of it for me is that Darklight seems to hit a lot of "classic" notes in terms of what I would expect out of a dungeon crawler, but with a much more modern sheen to it. The focus is on the actual crawling for the most part, with plenty to fiddle with outside of the dungeons as well in how you interact with the various settlements and events that spring up.

The D&D boardgames fell a bit flat for us, both in terms of complexity as well as mechanics.

Plus the design of the figure are pretty cool and a fair amount of variety is available. Not as much as what Deep Madness is throwing at us, but hell, with a bit of number crunching most of the Deep Madness guys could probably find a new gig lending a hand in Darklight...
 
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Shelby Babb
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Green Briar Games is enough reason to avoid Folklore, at least until it hits retail.

Go read how they handle Kickstarters in the past, read the KS comments, etc.

 
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Good work, I get the feeling that I have to jump on. Maybe I skip Folklore and decide in the next 3 weeks what to do with Deep Madness after Rise of Moloch and MB Pantheon are on Kickstarter.

Could you give me a hint what is wrong with GBG? What campaign has the comments you are referring to? I have the feeling that KS comments are always negative, no matter what company or game it is.
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Shelby Babb
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playswithfriends wrote:

Could you give me a hint what is wrong with GBG? What campaign has the comments you are referring to? I have the feeling that KS comments are always negative, no matter what company or game it is.


*) Grimslingers - painfully cheaper at retail (CSI at least).
*) Yashima - for a while it was painfully cheaper at retail while backers still waited (not GBG's fault, but still).
*) Delays, delays, delays.
*) Refuse to refund before they ship you your stuff (you can return it after you receive it for a refund, but then you eat shipping costs to send it back (and insure the shipping!), which deters you from bothering).

I respect that "only people with problems complain" when it comes to KS comments, and GBG -does- fulfill their pledges, but even still I'd recommend someone just wait to snag product at retail and put their money to other stuff in the meantime.
 
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San Dee Jota wrote:

I respect that "only people with problems complain" when it comes to KS comments, and GBG -does- fulfill their pledges, but even still I'd recommend someone just wait to snag product at retail and put their money to other stuff in the meantime.


We also need to remember why Kickstarter exists and I speak as a backer myself not creator. I support s project on KS even if sometimes it doesn't ends up being the best deal in the long run, because I believe in supporting smaller businesses over big, established companies which uses Kickstarter's money as an extra "cushion" or to "test the waters" for their product and in the worst case scenarios just because of greed.

When I back a project I do it not because I am going to get a bargain or because I want to preorder a game but because I want to show the creators I support them so much I am willing to give them money in advance and place my trust in them, I am well aware of the risks of losing my money or not getting what I hoped to get, but I made a choice to help their vision, not my own. This is what I believe Kicstarter should be about.
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Thank you for the list. That helps me to understand your concerns and to build my own opinion on it.
 
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Shelby Babb
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MauroP wrote:

We also need to remember why Kickstarter exists and I speak as a backer myself not creator. I support s project on KS even if sometimes it doesn't ends up being the best deal in the long run, because I believe in supporting smaller businesses over big, established companies which uses Kickstarter's money as an extra "cushion" or to "test the waters" for their product and in the worst case scenarios just because of greed.

When I back a project I do it not because I am going to get a bargain or because I want to preorder a game but because I want to show the creators I support them so much I am willing to give them money in advance and place my trust in them, I am well aware of the risks of losing my money or not getting what I hoped to get, but I made a choice to help their vision, not my own. This is what I believe Kicstarter should be about.


The problem I have with "we should support the -idea- of Kickstarter" is that in the end even the people saying that still expect to get something for their money. And those people -generally- aren't throwing in extra money beyond the cost of the things they pre-ordered/pledged for. Plus, it ignores the idea that Kickstarter is a still a business transaction and creators -owe- their backers for taking on the risk of backing their idea in the first place.

I know that's a dubious claim for some people, but it's true. Kickstarter is a place for creators to go and say "invest in my idea". Investments are based on people analyzing the risk of investing with the return on a reward. Maybe that reward is exclusives (blech!) or a cheap price and priority delivery (yay!). But regardless, even Kickstarter idealists expect a reward for their risk. I say GBG has problems making the reward worthwhile (-not- that you won't get a reward though!), and this is a recurring trend. Say what you want to about "big, established companies", but they're generally a safe investment with minimal risk for large reward, and that's part of why people flock to them.

But if you're worried as a KS creator... deliver to your backers first, for no more than a deep discounter would sell to them, keep communication flowing and open (even if it's just "work continues", say what the work is and how far along you think you are), try to deliver as promptly as you can, and you'll be fine. It's really that simple (okay, doing all that -isn't- that simple, but you know that already).

(and a side note for anyone paying attention: keep "Backers Only" posts to a bare minimum. I've seen creators try to use them as a means of damage control when the project has problems, and they look worse than just saying "we screwed up". The info will get out regardless, but trying to hide your mistakes is worse than having them on display for future backers. Got some downloads or something special just for backers? That's the only time when you should use that Backers Only option.)
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mauro pane
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I agree with what you're saying don't get me wrong, but we all have different views on Kickstarter I believe and that is why ultimately people becomes disillusioned or disappointed.

Some believe it is a pre-ordering service, others that it is a way to get premium content for the game you are buying at discounted price, others they see it as a way for a project to exist in the first place. Whatever your view is of KS projects we must'n forget the name "Kickstarter" which implies to kick-start an idea or a business and to me this has severely lost is meaning over the years (speaking gas a backer) since most of those who uses KS nowadays have already a good business going. Without your money it simply cannot start, so if it is something you really want, the risk of NOT putting money is that the project never gets made.

Of course people will chose the already established companies over the small ones, less risks, more rewards, but again, I think that utterly defeats the point of KS in the first place which is ultimately about helping the little guys get out of the "ocean of nothigness" where an idea or a dream just gets lost and fades in time.

I am not saying either side is wrong in thinking this, just expression how *I* personally feel KS should be treated (not trying to tell people how they should feel about us).

 
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The Game Steward
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MauroP wrote:


We also need to remember why Kickstarter exists and I speak as a backer myself not creator. I support s project on KS even if sometimes it doesn't ends up being the best deal in the long run, because I believe in supporting smaller businesses over big, established companies which uses Kickstarter's money as an extra "cushion" or to "test the waters" for their product and in the worst case scenarios just because of greed.

When I back a project I do it not because I am going to get a bargain or because I want to preorder a game but because I want to show the creators I support them so much I am willing to give them money in advance and place my trust in them, I am well aware of the risks of losing my money or not getting what I hoped to get, but I made a choice to help their vision, not my own. This is what I believe Kicstarter should be about.


I'm a bit more cynical, myself. As someone who owns an online game store that specializes in offering Kickstarter games (and backed DMM!), I gave up any notion about what Kickstarter "should" be about. It's a for profit company that offers a service (alternative financing compared to VC or Bank loans) that the owners of Kickstarter believe will make them money. Large companies (e.g. CMON) and first time publishers alike are welcome to launch projects on Kickstarter.

Despite my cynicism about Kickstarter as a company, though, I appreciate what Kickstarter allows others to accomplish. Here at The Game Steward, our favorite projects to back are from first time publishers who have something new and interesting to bring to market. We have backed over 450 projects now, more than half of which are from small indie publishers or first time project creators.

However, I also believe that if some backers want to pledge for games only if they are getting a bargain, or because they want KS Exclusives, or because they are bored and have nothing else to do, it's all good. There is no right or wrong reason to back a Kickstarter game project. Every backer who pledges - regardless of the reason - puts money in the pocket of a project creator that is used to publish the game, and that's why project creators put their game on Kickstarter, right?

But if a backer specifically pledges on Kickstarter because of the belief that it is a "bargain," then I'd tell them to do a lot of research, because it's very true that many Kickstarter games end up costing more than at retail. It's one of the many risks to consider when backing a Kickstarter campaign.
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gary gee
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GreenLaborMike wrote:
MauroP wrote:


We also need to remember why Kickstarter exists and I speak as a backer myself not creator. I support s project on KS even if sometimes it doesn't ends up being the best deal in the long run, because I believe in supporting smaller businesses over big, established companies which uses Kickstarter's money as an extra "cushion" or to "test the waters" for their product and in the worst case scenarios just because of greed.

When I back a project I do it not because I am going to get a bargain or because I want to preorder a game but because I want to show the creators I support them so much I am willing to give them money in advance and place my trust in them, I am well aware of the risks of losing my money or not getting what I hoped to get, but I made a choice to help their vision, not my own. This is what I believe Kicstarter should be about.


I'm a bit more cynical, myself. As someone who owns an online game store that specializes in offering Kickstarter games (and backed DMM!), I gave up any notion about what Kickstarter "should" be about. It's a for profit company that offers a service (alternative financing compared to VC or Bank loans) that the owners of Kickstarter believe will make them money. Large companies (e.g. CMON) and first time publishers alike are welcome to launch projects on Kickstarter.

Despite my cynicism about Kickstarter as a company, though, I appreciate what Kickstarter allows others to accomplish. Here at The Game Steward, our favorite projects to back are from first time publishers who have something new and interesting to bring to market. We have backed over 450 projects now, more than half of which are from small indie publishers or first time project creators.

However, I also believe that if some backers want to pledge for games only if they are getting a bargain, or because they want KS Exclusives, or because they are bored and have nothing else to do, it's all good. There is no right or wrong reason to back a Kickstarter game project. Every backer who pledges - regardless of the reason - puts money in the pocket of a project creator that is used to publish the game, and that's why project creators put their game on Kickstarter, right?

But if a backer specifically pledges on Kickstarter because of the belief that it is a "bargain," then I'd tell them to do a lot of research, because it's very true that many Kickstarter games end up costing more than at retail. It's one of the many risks to consider when backing a Kickstarter campaign.
Yes,thats one of the things ive been saying about kickstarters nowadays..the value we used to get has gone from a lot of the KS projects.IM NOT PUTTING DMM or S&S in this cataegory by the way!.
but a few years ago.you got a lot of unlocks that were real value ie: full campaign or tile set or card sets etc..now usually at each unlock its one mini or 1 scenario or 1 tile...now a new thing has surfaced ADDONS...never used to have the addons which now are the things that unlocks used to be.campaigns mini sets etc...I used to work in marketing and its just very cynical marketing. and your right when you say to check the final costs..its usually a lot more. more and more people are seeing through the whole KS thing.
I know many people who have stopped bothering with KS just waited until the game is finally released.then bought the game.and picked up any KS exclusives off ebay..for a lot less.
problem is that KS has no accountability..and still get there percentage cut no matter what happems.
finally another marketing trick is..and I'm sure this will happen with some of the KS projects...when the companies have very large amounts of our money in their bank accounts earning them interest.we are left waiting a LOT longer than the estimated date.some of these companies keep this money in their accounts until the very last minute before releasing it to the manufacturers..and that is one reason a lot of the games are very late getting to us!.

I'm very choosy which KS I back nowadays..and have got 4 to come..3 are running late this year.and this one for next year
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Great comment about kickstarter in general.. people these days just seem to want to back things if they are getting a ridiculous amount of stretch goals from Companies that really surely don't need KS.. I like to back projects that wouldn't get to exist without it. Darklight looks fantastic.. I can't wait.
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Christopher Senn
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Just went through that list. Wow! So many solo persistent RPGs out there now. Hard to tell which one to even play
 
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gary gee
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"I'm very choosy which KS I back nowadays..and have got 4 to come..3 are running late this year.and this one for next year"


the last bit of the comment I posted last [see above].
UPDATE:
now 3 of the 4 KS I have backed are now put back to next year [some well into next year!!].
and the 4th one is a card game standalone expansion.and that's even running months late.but we are told it will be here in the next few weeks [I wont hold my breath].

just reinforces my comments about the state of the kickstarters nowadays.and what a scam they are becoming in a lot of cases.
 
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Martin Persson
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I feel like this thread very quickly devolved into a discussion about kickstarter, which is a shame, because I would love to hear more reasons why someone should pick Darklight over all the others options on the market right now?
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The Game Steward
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esqulax wrote:
I feel like this thread very quickly devolved into a discussion about kickstarter, which is a shame, because I would love to hear more reasons why someone should pick Darklight over all the others options on the market right now?


Just to summarize some of the points made earlier, there are a few reasons to pick D:MM:

1. Theme - this is an original world of darker fantasy. No chibis, and not generic fantasy of Elves, Orcs, Dwarves etc. like you find in Sword & Sorcery, Descent, etc.

2. Persistent campaign. Unlike many dungeon crawlers that are one shot scenario based games, D:MM allows for true character progression.

3. Randomly generated dungeons, so you are not limited to published scenarios or fan-generated scenarios.

4. Beautiful minis - this is more common with each new Kickstarter game that is minis heavy, but going back to the original fantasy world created for this game, the minis here are unique.

***Edit to delete conflicting use of "unique"

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GreenLaborMike wrote:
esqulax wrote:
I feel like this thread very quickly devolved into a discussion about kickstarter, which is a shame, because I would love to hear more reasons why someone should pick Darklight over all the others options on the market right now?


Just to summarize some of the points made earlier, there are a few reasons to pick D:MM:

1. Theme - this is an original world of darker fantasy. No chibis, and not generic fantasy of Elves, Orcs, Dwarves etc. like you find in Sword & Sorcery, Descent, etc.

2. Persistent campaign. Unlike many dungeon crawlers that are one shot scenario based games, D:MM allows for true character progression.

3. Randomly generated dungeons, so you are not limited to published scenarios or fan-generated scenarios.

4. Beautiful minis - not necessarily unique, and this is more common with each new Kickstarter game that is minis heavy, but going back to the original fantasy world created for this game, the minis here are unique.



And to add to that I want to say that you also have my constant support here and in the future when it comes to the creative side of this game.

I do not want to just release it and move on to something else. I want to hear your stories, your adventures, your creatures and make a dedicated section for all these and integrate the best creations into the official development lore of the game.

Darklgiht will be literally in your collective hands and which will help it shape over the years.
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jernej peter
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My reasons are:

1.Theme - for me the fantasy is the best theme there is

2.Going through map and revealing tiles as you go - I always wonted a game, where you dont have your playing area (dungeon) lay out before you, but have to find as you go what lies ahead.

3.Very cool design

4.Campaign

5.The way you can upgrade and equip your Heroes


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Greg
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I backed it with a late pledge even though I've already backed many other dungeon crawler games recently. Here are my reasons:

- Artwork, especially on the board tiles, looks really sharp.

- The 3D renders of the miniatures look really well done and the styling of them is different enough from other games that they grabbed my attention.

- 3mm thick cardboard. Even though this sounds like a small thing, the fact it was even MENTIONED during the KS really shows a commitment to quality components (even Kingdom Death only uses 2mm card).

- Active commentary from the designer. Clearly the guy likes talking about the game and making time to answer questions about it.

- The rulebook already looks really thorough and well laid out, so I know the game's design isn't going to be an afterthought.

- Campaign play. I like how the game includes options for visiting a town and dealing with stuff there as well. It really makes the game world seem more fleshed out and makes me want to keep playing after each scenario.

- Just a huge amount of stuff in the box. Frankly the game is pretty cheap for the amount of components it has.


I'm honestly shocked the Kickstarter only brought in $200K. This looks like a really well thought out product with high production values.
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yes,I was surprised there wasn't more put into it at KS.but,if I remember rightly.there were quite a few big games on the Kickstarter.at the same time as this...but I agree.this does look great and its good to see a proper dark fantasy "crawler".without cutesy minis.and this along with Sword and sorcery are probably my two most wanted games.ive backed 4 but this and s&s are the two I'm most looking forward to !.
its a shame the smaller companies like this tend to get pushed out or overshadowed by the big companies who over the last couple of years have started running their games on KS.

but I'm glad I backed this,and like its been mentioned the dev keeps in touch [even after the KS has finished].which is something quite rare!.and from what he has said he is in this for the long haul.which with that kind of attitude.will get a good community which does more than anything else to make a great game [and expansions].and the game looks very moddable so its a sure fire winner to me....look at descent that has got a massive community purely because its modding community and help from FFG...
 
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