$20.00
$15.00
$30.00
$5.00
Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

Forbidden Island» Forums » General

Subject: Leacock: Nice for kids - Keep away from adults rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Aristides Chrapalos
Greece
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
A fan game if you don't take it seriously.

To me it is basically a one player game that is boring to play alone. If you prefer it is an exciting puzzle for a group of people to solve together, but the "players" thing is a joke. You could play it alone, you could play it with ten of your friends.

I feel that this is a great game to play with kids. The mechanics is almost exlusively kids oriented in my opinion. (That's also my main problem with pandemic, it has kids mechanics but it tries to be an adult game).

The most irritating feature of this line of Leacock games is that the game doesn't end only when the island sinks (or when the whole world is hopelesly infected) it can also end when you draw a predetermined number of Waters Rise cards (or when the players deck ends for Pandemic). In my opinion this is a preposterous, cheap and extremely unthematic trick that makes me mad every time I think about it. I mean how can the water rise at a level of drowning everyone, while at the same time there are parts of the island that are perfectly dry.

The next worse thing about the game (also present in pandemic) is that no one (except for the person guiding other players) has the feeling that actually plays his character and that his actions matter. In forbiden island I can see an adult peacfuly guiding children and letting them have fun. But I can't help from laughing when I see experienced pandemic players trying to be polite while patronizing other adults and trying to hide their pain when an obviously bad move is proposed.

- "We could do that, OR MAYBE it would be better to do this and this and this and then Mary will do this and this and the other and then it's my turn again"
- "OK, let's do it that way, and then we can play a game that I can be a part of."

It remind's me when a friend of ours told us that we can have a shooting contest with his Dad's hunting rifle, but because it will be dangerous he would take our shots too. And then he started shooting going like this: "Now I am shooting for me, now I am shooting for Nick, now I am shooting for Paul (and so on)"

That is why I can see this game only in a non serious-kids context.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Was George Orwell an Optimist?
United States
Corvallis
Oregon
flag msg tools
Clifford Brown - Brown & Roach Inc. || Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers - Mosaic || Either/Orchestra - The Calculus of Pleasure || Michael Formanek - Low Profile
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd say that many adults enjoy simple games, and that Forbidden Island was never intended as a simulation. Still, this is clearly an opinion piece and you're entitled to yours. If you were to submit it in the Reviews folder instead of General you'd earn some geek gold and probably draw far more attention.

(I'll throw in another bit of advice while I'm at it: the phrase "Wife Control" won't gain you many friends. I imagine it was intended differently than it sounds, but it's wise to choose your words carefully online.)
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Runcible Spoon
United States
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Peopepeo13 wrote:
That's my main problem with pandemic, it has kids mechanics but it tries to be an adult game.


Dude...really?

Co-op does not equal kids game.

Moreover, there are tons of kids games that are fun...Animal Upon Animal, Rhino Hero, PitchCar and more!

Peopepeo13 wrote:
That is why I can see this game only in a non serious-kids context.


Waaaaiiiittt a sec....I have been doing this wrong all these years!

My games are supposed to be serious shake
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kenny Johnson
United States
Torrance
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've played this game several times without kids and it has been enjoyed by all. I think Forbidden Desert is a better, deeper game, but this one is fun and fairly difficult with 4 people.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aristides Chrapalos
Greece
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
What I meant by kids mechanics has nothing to do with the cleverness of the game or it's simplicity and surely not it's cooperative nature.

It's all about the flaws in the mechanics an adult must pretend that not exist in order to play with his heart.

That said, I couldn't care less for geek gold and attention. I just wanted to point out some aspects of the game that new gamers may find helpful.

I am offering just a different view. No intention to sound offensive to adults enjoying Leacock, and clearly there are a lot of them.

I always prefer people enjoying games, than agreeing with my opinion! Have fun everybody!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
We've had a lot of fun playing both Forbidden Island and Pandemic with both kids and adults.

I'd retitle this post "Nice game- Keep away from alpha players".
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay K
United Kingdom
West Malling
Kent
flag msg tools
designer
Nothing to see here. Please move on
badge
It's about time!
mbmbmbmbmb
Peopepeo13 wrote:
What I meant by kids mechanics has nothing to do with the cleverness of the game or it's simplicity and surely not it's cooperative nature.

It's all about the flaws in the mechanics an adult must pretend that not exist in order to play with his heart.


Flaws in the mechanics?! Personally, I cannot see any flaws. The mechanics work just fine.

Hardcore gamers would almost certainly be better off playing Forbidden Desert and I can agree that this can suffer from the Alpha gamer issue.

Finally, I will also agree that it is far simpler than Pandemic and as such you could simply say it is a good Family/ gateway game to bring people into the hobby.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aristides Chrapalos
Greece
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I mentioned and analyzed three major flaws IN MY OPINION.

1. None of the players gets the feeling that he does his own thing in his turn. Of course the team strategy in every co-op must be discused by the team, but from that point on every player should have the chance to be proud for a great move or "be ashamed" for a failure. One good example for me is Hanabi, where on every player's turn the choice is there only for that player to make. I would be OK if at least there was some dice rolling so I can at least be proud for a nice roll. Instead,in my turn I only get to draw a certain number of cards from a deck and nothing more. How can I enjoy drawing cards without taking actions?

What I am saying is that there is no need for me to draw any cards on my turn. This is a job that can be done easily by one person for the whole game. But then it would be obvious to all that there is no participation in the game other than discussing team strategy. In some way every pawn belongs to every player and that puts me off. I want to be a member of a team but retain my uniqueness. I can see no fun in pretending it is my turn, by drawing some cards, that could have been drawn by anyone without afecting the outcome of the game.

2. I want to give a fair fight with the island that is sinking (or the deseases). If I am doing well at managing the sinking tiles, I want to go on playing and not stop because the number of rounds is predetermined. As I said before I find this a cheap and unthematick trick that takes all the fun away from an otherwise extremely interesting game.

3. If an Αlpha-gamer has the chance to rule the game, that is because the game allows him to do so, and that is a flaw of the game. The worst thing though is that people feel manipulated even by very polite gamers who are just trying to explain to others what are their choices and the consequences of their actions. When the team discusses in order to choose its next moves, inevitably the most experienced players will come up with the best suggestion and most of the times the new players will follow them. In that sense you don't have to be an Alpha-gamer to rule the game. I feel this Alpha-gamer excuse prevents people from facing with a major flaw of the game. When I play with other people I usually have to step back and not play myself, acting more as a presenter and narrator, than a team member. Only playing with kids I felt comfortable with this role. With adult groups I felt just silly.

I must say that I don't find it outragous to follow orders, but in that case the Flaw number 1 mast be dealt. For example when I play basketball following the coaches orders doesn't make me feel uncomfortable. That is because I get fun from doing well in what he asked me to do and therefore feel I did my part in winning a game. Getting orders without satisfaction is Leacock's games problem.

If you want to comment specifically on these three aspects and explain how these doesn't bother you, I think that we will have a very interesting and helpful discussion for gamers that are interested in buying the game.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay K
United Kingdom
West Malling
Kent
flag msg tools
designer
Nothing to see here. Please move on
badge
It's about time!
mbmbmbmbmb
I think if you are really bothered by Alpha gamer or a perceived issue of having to be coached to play in an optimal fashion, and by that I refer to your problem no. 1. Then you could, by all means implement an additional rule. Easiest rule would be no discussion of tactics at the table. Or all cards are held as a hand and the player cannot share which cards he has, unless the player's are on the same square let's say. That should solve 1 and 3 in my book. The truth is that I have the complete opposite problem i.e. with games that try to put rules around communication as they can be circumvented or misinterpreted.

For issue no 2, most games have a timer of some sort. The deck running out or a number of factors occurring:

Doom tokens in any Arkham/Eldritch horror game.
The three ages and limited cards in Blood Rage or 7 Wonders

I actually like Forbidden Island because the more you draw treasure cards but don't focus on a single treasure the fewer cards are in the treasure deck and the quicker the island sinks. So you do need to focus and work together to get treasures so that you can return cards to the card pool.

4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacek Deimer
Poland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
I really enjoyed both of my playthroughts of Pandemic Legacy. Should I feel bad know, bacause I enjoyed a childish game and I enjoyed it?. Should I consider myself immature?

I don't know what you wanted to achieve with your post Aristides, but you managed to insult at least me.

Some of the issues you pointed are simply a nature of cooperative games. I played many of them an enjoy them greatly. And yes, in most of them one player can actually play for entire group. There will be always problem of difference of player skill and experience. Of course new players have to learn from veterans and on mistakes. The trick is to give guidance in a not oppressive way. It is all about people and their attitude.

It looks like coop games are not for you, you simply don't get why some people enjoy them.

Your point nr 2. Well, many games have arbitrary ending. In fact most of them, have a look at BGG top 100.

In the end I don't like your rant and I don't know why you had to discredit Matt Leacock as designer. Because he made simple, kids and family friendly game like Forbidden Island?



Yes Pandemic is quite basic, but a good game, with expansions it becomes very good and Legacy version is absolutely great.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jay K
United Kingdom
West Malling
Kent
flag msg tools
designer
Nothing to see here. Please move on
badge
It's about time!
mbmbmbmbmb
At the end of the day Pandemic Legacy is one of the most highly rated games on BGG and Pandemic has become an "evergreen" title so I think most people will disagree with the OP's assessment and I doubt that Matt Leacock will mind awfully much.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Cornixt
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It is really about your gamer group. If your group can't play a coop game without you feeling like you are playing with kids then it is their problem, not the game. There are no strict rules about how to communicate (which isn't a flaw in the game), but a simple rule of not talking about other people's actions will make it feel more like each individual has their own choices rather than being herded by the other players or alpha gamers.

As for the ending sometimes being unthematic - you could think of it as being a time limit where the guy with the helicopter flies off the island without everyone because he is too afraid that the island is about to sink, because at that time it is not going to last more than another round anyway. The whole sinking and shoring up system is a bit weird when it comes to matching real-life with the mechanisms used, but pretty much every game has some kind of disconnect in a similar way. It's something you have to live with.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Gotteri
United Kingdom
CHESTERFIELD
Derbyshire
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I play this mainly as a quick solo puzzle game, not using some of the characters as they make it too easy.
For what that brings me, I enjoy playing it.
One character, find the treasures whilst keeling the island shored up, job done.
I understand what you mean overral, and in fairness to you I doubt i'd play it with more than two people working together.
:-)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.