Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
13 Posts

SeaFall» Forums » Rules

Subject: Spoiler-free questions - Milestone timing and "end your turn" rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Simon C
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The following questions are based solely on the unaltered rulebook - I haven't got my copy yet!

When exactly are milestones claimed? There's a specific step for it during the player turn, which would seem to answer the question obviously, but the last sentence in the rules explanation for that step makes everything confused. To wit:

Seafall Rules Page 13: Taking Your Turn wrote:
4. Claim a Milestone

If, after an action, you met therequirements for one of the available
milestones, claim that milestone and follow the instructions on the milestone card. You may only claim one milestone per turn. If you met the criteria for more than one milestone in a turn, you must choose which to claim. Sometimes claiming a milestone after your first action will end your turn.


How can you claim a milestone "after your first action" if both your Guild actions are in Step 3 and you only claim a milestone in Step 4?

Additionally, I'm uncertain about the "end your turn" possibility - which can apply when claiming a milestone (potentially, apparently) and does occur automatically if you attempt an endeavor and fail (in which case it can definitely be as part of your first action).

What exactly does "end your turn" cause you to skip? If you're in Step 3 - Hire a Guild (and doing the actions for it) then it makes sense you miss any further actions, fine. Presumably you also skip Step 4 - Claim a Milestone, if the "end your turn" was from a failed endeavor. Do you also miss Step 5 - Exhaust your Active Advisor? That would seem odd - you get to keep an Active Advisor through everyone else's turn, and could use them again the following round for the second round in a year! Surely that isn't correct - but I can't see anything in the rules to say it isn't.

Any thoughts or non-spoilery help on either point?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
gary g
msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Example:

I want to Explore to get a Milestone.
I'm already on the site needing explored so I don't Sail there.
My explore endeavor meets the criteria to claim that Milestone so I do.
Milestone flavor text 'maybe' tells me to Rip up some stuff and end turn.
You think "Oh, shit but I still wanted to Sail!"
Too bad. The milestone 'ended your turn' at your 'first' action.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
So the rules are a bit confusing here, and claiming a milestone is really kind of a step 3b instead of a step 4 (you check it after each of your actions, not after both).

Then, if the milestone ends your turn somehow, skip to the "Exhaust Active Advisor" step (don't take any more actions, if this was your first).
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becq Starforged
United States
Cerritos
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
To my understanding, you check for milestones after each action and only after each action. So, for example, if you have a milestone completed at the beginning of your turn (because you completed two on the previous turn and could only claim one, or because you completed one by buying a treasure), you still take an action before resolving that milestone.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon C
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
OK...so based on these answers, this means the following:

Firstly, milestones are implicitly split into two categories: "stateful" milestones and "event" milestones. For example, from the four in Game 1, "Have treasures totalling 3+ glory in your treasure room" and "Have three structures" are stateful, while "Explore the highest numbered site on an island" and "Raid a site with defense of 6 without sinking" are events.

Secondly, your turn structure is actually as follows, despite what it says in the rulebook:

Real Turn Structure wrote:

1. Hire Advisors OR Buy Treasure

(as per the rulebook.)

2. Activate an Advisor

(as per the rulebook.)

3. Hire a Guild

Choose a guild and gain two actions. (Do not choose or perform these actions yet).

4. Take Actions

- If you have no actions remaining or you do not wish to use any, move straight to step 5.

- Otherwise, choose an action of your hired Guild that you have not already taken this turn and perform that action.

- After resolving the action, you may claim a milestone: either a stateful milestone that you meet the requirements for or an event milestone that you have achieved in this just-taken action. You may not claim a milestone if you have already claimed one this turn.

- If you claimed a milestone and the text entry said "End your turn", or you attempted an endeavour in your action and failed, then lose all remaining actions (you may not gain any more actions this turn)

- Return to the start of step 4.

5. Exhaust your Active Advisor

(as per the rulebook.)


The need for stateful vs event actions is based on the fact that (a) this makes sense if milestones can only be claimed directly after an action but some can be achieved at other moments, and (b) it sounds like it fits narratively with the descriptions of the milestones.

I'm happy with the above - it gives a clear, consistent framework for the turn (and fits with things like the Leader appelations that say you spend two gold to take all three actions - you simply spend two gold any time during step 4 and you gain an action.) The only difficulty is distinguishing event vs stateful milestones but that should be largely clear by the text on them as they become available.

The only remaining issue on the topic is: do we have any actual evidence that this is how it's meant to be played? I've seen some of the developers and playtesters on here so their feedback would be great, but failing that I'm happy to take someone saying "well, those are the rules we followed when playing, and it worked for us".

Thanks!

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steven Blackburn
United Kingdom
Helston
Cornwall
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LeonardQuirm wrote:

I'm happy with the above - it gives a clear, consistent framework for the turn (and fits with things like the Leader appelations that say you spend two gold to take all three actions - you simply spend two gold any time during step 4 and you gain an action.) The only difficulty is distinguishing event vs stateful milestones but that should be largely clear by the text on them as they become available.



No, you'd have to pay the gold in step 3, since you are paying more to hire them, you couldn't do a sail action and then go "have two gold so I can do more actions"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon C
United Kingdom
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Steue wrote:
LeonardQuirm wrote:

I'm happy with the above - it gives a clear, consistent framework for the turn (and fits with things like the Leader appelations that say you spend two gold to take all three actions - you simply spend two gold any time during step 4 and you gain an action.) The only difficulty is distinguishing event vs stateful milestones but that should be largely clear by the text on them as they become available.



No, you'd have to pay the gold in step 3, since you are paying more to hire them, you couldn't do a sail action and then go "have two gold so I can do more actions"


Hmmm. The appellations do say "when hiring the [such-and-such] guild", so for my sequencing above, that's definitely Step 3, before taking any actions. However, in rules as written, the actual taking of actions is nebulous but probably are part of Step 3 as well, so it's not clear to me that you shouldn't be able to (say) hire the Soldier's Guild, tax to get 3 money, then spend two of those and take both other actions. I guess it's not clear whether the taking of actions is meant to be still part of "hiring", or whether the sequence does indeed go "Hire, then perform actions".

Still, if I'm playing with the more formalised sequence I proposed, then restricting payment to step 3 (before taking any actions) seems fair!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
One thing that's strange to me is trying to figure out why the claiming of milestones is so baroque, checking at different times, sometimes ending your turn early and sometimes not. Having played through several milestones now, it seems to add complexity while serving no useful game purpose at all that I can see.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jacob Westerlund
Sweden
flag msg tools
Yea. I was wondering this myself. Could you not just play it that you check for completed Milestones after both your actions. Then if you have completed more than one, choose?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becq Starforged
United States
Cerritos
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
I can only assume that they wanted to add a tiny amount of extra tension into the decision to perform an action that would let you claim a milestone. But if there is a benefit to the game for doing that (as opposed to checking at the end of the turn) I haven't come across that yet in our campaign.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Muede87 wrote:
Yea. I was wondering this myself. Could you not just play it that you check for completed Milestones after both your actions. Then if you have completed more than one, choose?


What it feels like to me is that this was at some point the intention, and when it changed the rules didn't get fully adjusted.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
In service to the Imperium of Man
United States
Portland
Oregon
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Becq wrote:
I can only assume that they wanted to add a tiny amount of extra tension into the decision to perform an action that would let you claim a milestone. But if there is a benefit to the game for doing that (as opposed to checking at the end of the turn) I haven't come across that yet in our campaign.

Without going too much into spoilers, the results of achieving a milestone after your first action of a turn may affect the decisions you make on your second action.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
For example, if you receive an extra Fortune or Reputation token as the result of a milestone, you might want to use that token during the next action on your turn. Or you might want to use your next action to put you in a better position to use that token on the following turn.


But I think this benefit is minor, and nothing I have seen from a handful of milestones so far would be affected much if the rules said "check for milestones at the end of your turn and pick one".
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becq Starforged
United States
Cerritos
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Oh, I agree there's potential consequences. Even more significant, it's even possible to "accidentally" complete a milestone, surprising even yourself. (unlock #2 spoiler, I think)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
One of the milestones we have active now is to have accumulate a certain amount of gold. Gaining gold from an exploration result can occur, though it can't be planned for, and if gaining that gold pushes you over the milestone amount, then you are required to complete that milestone after the action.

That said, my position is the same as yours -- I'm still not convinced that the game benefits from the rule being written that way, and it does make the game rules seem conflicting and/or confusing the way they are written. (This is not the first or even the second time this question has come up!)
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.