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Band of Brothers: Ghost Panzer» Forums » Rules

Subject: Tank Op Fire clarifications rss

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Gareth Bellaby
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Am I correct in stating that a tank is marked with a Move counter if it moves to a new hex at any point during activation (unless it is marked Op Fire)? For example, a tank moves to a new hex, turns, then attempts to fire. It would take the -4 penalty to its proficiency check to fire and a Move counter would be placed on it.

Can I also check the phrasing of rulebook (v2.1) just so that I can be certain that I'm not missing something. In rule 20.3 it states that "If this Vehicle later used Op Fire, it would NOT get the +4 modifier for moving to a new hex.". I presume this means that if it attempts Op Fire it would not get the -4 penalty to its proficiency check.

Does turning trigger opposing Op Fire? Rule 20.5 seems to imply this, but only states it for the particular situation of turning in order to fire. So would just changing facing (without firing or movement) trigger Op Fire? If tank moved into a new hex and then changed facing, could I Op Fire after the change of facing?

Thanks
 
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Mike Hoyt

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You are confusing two different concepts.

The MOVE marker is earned by your tank for having moved. It makes you a more difficult target for other people to shoot at. It has no effect on your ability to shoot.

But the confusion is understandable, because the same action of having moved that earned you the MOVE marker, does impact your Proficiency Check if you attempt to move and fire. (But the distinction is important, if you move and earn a MOVE marker this turn, then shoot next turn while you still have the MOVE marker there is no reduction to your Proficency Check, you might not even need one. The reduction to proficency only applies if you both move and shoot on the same turn

garethjb wrote:
Am I correct in stating that a tank is marked with a Move counter if it moves to a new hex at any point during activation (unless it is marked Op Fire)?
Yes and No, you earn a MOVE marker if you move at least 1 hex. If you move less than 1/3 of your movement allowance you can mark as Op Fire AND get a MOVE marker (Incorrect. You don't get both. See below)


Quote:
For example, a tank moves to a new hex, turns, then attempts to fire. It would take the -4 penalty to its proficiency check to fire and a Move counter would be placed on it.
Yes. -4 PC for having moved, not for having a MOVE marker (just want to emphasis the MOVE marker is a good thing in that it makes you a more diffiuclt target, the marker itself does not impact your ability to pass a PC)

Quote:
Can I also check the phrasing of rulebook (v2.1) just so that I can be certain that I'm not missing something. In rule 20.3 it states that "If this Vehicle later used Op Fire, it would NOT get the +4 modifier for moving to a new hex.". I presume this means that if it attempts Op Fire it would not get the -4 penalty to its proficiency check.
Correct.

Quote:
Does turning trigger opposing Op Fire? Rule 20.5 seems to imply this, but only states it for the particular situation of turning in order to fire. So would just changing facing (without firing or movement) trigger Op Fire?
No. See the last paragraph of 20.4.Simply turning within a hex in order to fire is not considered movement for purposes of triggering Op Fire.

Quote:
If tank moved into a new hex and then changed facing, could I Op Fire after the change of facing?
Yes, because the movement into the hex is what alerted you, now you can Op Fire at any future point within your LOS

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Gareth Bellaby
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Thanks for the response. Your answer helped and our playthrough of the second scenario today was a lot smoother than the one yesterday.

I said Rule 20.5 but meant Rule 20.4. I won't edit my post since it'll make your reply look incongruous.

You say that a tank can get both a Move marker and an Op Fire marker but the response here suggests that if marked Op Fire, it does not get the Move marker:
Re: Op Fire & Vehicles
I assume that this is still the case?

At the risk of labouring the point I wrote out a quick summary of some of the conditions in order to clarify things for ourselves:

1) Tank is stationary. It fires.
Any proficiency check would be solely dependent on other factors (e.g. range > 5)
No penalty to proficiency check (unless other factors).
Marked as Used.

2) Turns in hex and fires.
Causes proficiency check because of turn.
Penalty of -1 to proficiency check from the turn (other factors may also affect the check)
Mark as Used.

3) Move at least one Hex and then fires.
Causes proficiency check because of move.
Penalty of -4 to proficiency check from the move (other factors may also affect the check).
Mark as Used.
Mark as Move.

4) Move 1/3rd or less MP.
Mark as Op Fire. Not marked as Used or Move.
Later fires in response to enemy move.
Causes proficiency check because of opportunity fire.
Penalty of -2 because of opportunity fire. Bonus of +1 because marked Op Fire (other factors may also affect the check but its own movement earlier wouldn't be one of them).
Flip Op Fire marker to Used.

 
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Jim Krohn
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You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
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Quote:
the response here suggests that if marked Op Fire, it does not get the Move marker:
Re: Op Fire & Vehicles
I assume that this is still the case?


Correct

Quote:
1) Tank is stationary. It fires.
Any proficiency check would be solely dependent on other factors (e.g. range > 5)
No penalty to proficiency check (unless other factors).
Marked as Used.

2) Turns in hex and fires.
Causes proficiency check because of turn.
Penalty of -1 to proficiency check from the turn (other factors may also affect the check)
Mark as Used.

3) Move at least one Hex and then fires.
Causes proficiency check because of move.
Penalty of -4 to proficiency check from the move (other factors may also affect the check).
Mark as Used.
Mark as Move.

4) Move 1/3rd or less MP.
Mark as Op Fire. Not marked as Used or Move.
Later fires in response to enemy move.
Causes proficiency check because of opportunity fire.
Penalty of -1 because of opportunity fire. Bonus of +1 because marked Op Fire (other factors may also affect the check but its own movement earlier wouldn't be one of them).
Flip Op Fire marker to Used.


I read these over quickly, but they look right.

One note that I would add is that if you turn as part of Op Fire and fail the Prof Check, the Vehicle does not get to turn.
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Mike Hoyt

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Jim Krohn wrote:
Quote:
the response here suggests that if marked Op Fire, it does not get the Move marker:
Re: Op Fire & Vehicles
I assume that this is still the case?


Correct



I misunderstood this one. Thanks for clarifying, and I do see it in the rules

20.3 ....After a Vehicle completes it's movement and is marked as Used (not if it is marked as Op Fire) it is also marked with a MOVE counter if the Vehicle moved to a new hex. .....
 
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Si Brooks
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Jim,

Thanks for the clarifications, I certainly understand it better now and had been doing it wrong with the 'Move' marker and 'Op Fire' marker.

However this also poses a question: I don't follow the logic of the move to new hex and -4 to the proficiency check, if the moving and Op firing vehicle doesn't get it? It seems that if I want to 'caterpillar' out of cover and fire, I'm penalised, but if I caterpillar out and hold fire I'm not penalised. Am I missing something?

Rgds,

Si
 
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Dean Halley
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Thanks Jim for the clarifications.

Si,
I think its has to do with the number of MPs spent. If you spend 1/3 or less then you didn't caterpillar as far, so you can be marked as Op Fire.
If you spend more than a 1/3, then you are caterpillaring a much further distance, which makes it harder to regain target aquistion, thus the -4 modifier.

Dean
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Si Brooks
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Hi Dean,

Apologies, I wasn't clear in my post. The 'caterpillar' movement is less than a third of MPs. It doesn't matter how far you move if you fire during the activation, you will pick up the -4 to proficiency. If you move less than a third but mark for Op fire, you avoid the -4 but may not get to fire. Essentially, there's no fire from a short halt, or at least, there is but only if an enemy moves after your movement or you accept the -4. It's the difference between a moving unit using 1/3 movement firing immediately on a unit which comes into view as a result of your movement and firing on an enemy that becomes visible as a result of their movement.

I'm not following the logic. Move a short distance, fire immediately gets penalised; move a short distance, wait to fire at a moving target doesn't get penalised.

Rgds,

Si
 
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Jim Krohn
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Si, it is all about what it represents - the type of movement being done and the situation it is meant to be used in.

Historically, the tank that was in position first, had a bit of an advantage over a tank that was approaching it. That is a just a general rule of thumb (of course, there are exceptions).

So, the tank that fires after moving represents that tank that is at a disadvantage. A stationary, waiting tank can Op Fire at it and the moving tank gets a big Prof reduction when it fires.

The caterpillar tank represents the tank that is cautiously moving into position against no (known) opposition. It gets in position first and sets up. Now IT has the advantage over another attacking vehicle because it got there first. This is also why it does not get a Move marker. It is not changing position in front of an enemy.

If I didn't have it structured that way, it would open the door for all sorts of gamey tactics and situations. Imagine an open space with two sides with their vehicles behind obstacles - something like this:

German Tanks -- Cover -- Open Space -- Cover -- American Tanks

Without the caterpillar rule, neither side would want to move into that open space because then their tanks would get marked Used and the other side could approach them with free shots. That would be a stupid, unrealistic way for the game to work. In reality BOTH sides WANT to get there first so that they can set up fields of fire over that open space. The caterpillar rule allows you to do that and get set up as Op Fire without breaking other rules and it does so by using the tactics of the period.

In game terms, you will NOT use the caterpillar rule against known opposition. Why would you? You don't get the move marker and you don't get to shoot. In that case you would use normal movement, be a harder target to hit and get to shoot. That is the reason the rule is written as it is. I don't want you to use the caterpillar movement against a known position because a tank commander in that spot would not slowly move his tank into an enemy field of fire to get blasted.

There are a few rules that are pretty unique to the vehicle combat of this game:

1. The persistence of the Move marker (lasting into next turn)
2. The Vehicle Prof system
3. Caterpillar movement
4. The inability of a Vehicle to turn and face a moving target if it fails its Prof check.

These rules all work together to place the incentives in the right place to encourage realistic use of your Vehicles without gamey tactics.
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Si Brooks
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Jim,

That's very clear. I was beginning to suspect that was the idea as I was typing my last post. I had thought that an enemy's op fire was sufficient advantage to counter a short move and fire activation. However, I must admit I'd completely failed to consider the possibility that the enemy might be used. The enduring -4 makes more sense now.

I have to say, I'm fully behind BoB, so not trying to be critical but just trying to better understand the system. I'm now selling ASL, OST, CoH, HoP and Panzer. None of them are as good as BoB in my view. Part of the strength of the game is your support here. The only thing BoB lacks for me is complete Orbats to enable scenario creation.

I'm also intrigued to know whether Russian proficiency is going to improve as the war goes on. Perhaps I should save that for another post though.

Thanks again for the explanation,

Si
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Gareth Bellaby
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Thanks Jim. Your support is much appreciated. I'll add your note onto my conditions.

Thank you also for creating such an enjoyable game. The game is fun, fast flowing but also feels realistic.
 
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