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Bios: Genesis» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can you promote a cube-less Mutation? rss

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Yani
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If a Mutation has lost its cube to a parasite, can you still spend a catalyst and promote it?

Thanks
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Kevin Reyes
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As long as I understood, yes, you can, because the parasite doesn't make you lose the cube, it's a shared cube.
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Phil Eklund
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coralsaw wrote:
If a Mutation has lost its cube to a parasite, can you still spend a catalyst and promote it?

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Yes.
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Jorik
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but what if the parsite loses the cube due to atrophy?
 
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Yani
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Have a look at the Glossary under Mutation. When a Mutation loses its cube for whatever reason, the card is discarded back to the bottom of the organism's home row mutation deck. No cube, no mutation.
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Jorik
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not according to a later ruling of Phil:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23970829#23970829
Quote:
Hello TC, this is a good point. I agree with Matt, and have changed the living rules in E3 and H4 to agree with the glossary entry for disease: Mutations are never lost or demoted by disease (only suffer stolen chromosomes).
 
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Rich James
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HerrJork wrote:
but what if the parsite loses the cube due to atrophy?

I don't see any restrictions under H2. Promoting a mutation or parasite on this. It just says you can promote an unpromoted mutation by spending a Catalyst of the color of that unpromoted mutation.
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Yani
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HerrJork wrote:
not according to a later ruling of Phil:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23970829#23970829
Quote:
Hello TC, this is a good point. I agree with Matt, and have changed the living rules in E3 and H4 to agree with the glossary entry for disease: Mutations are never lost or demoted by disease (only suffer stolen chromosomes).

I think you got it wrong here. From the Glossary:
Quote:
A Mutation is in lockstep with its Mutation cubes: loss of its card (e.g. in a UV event) means loss of its cubes as well, and loss of its cubes (e.g. in an Atrophy) loses its card well. This lockstep is honored even if the card is with a Host and the cubes with a Parasite.


In the linked thread, Phil said that a Mutation is never lost or demoted by disease, not Atrophy. Disease is moving the cube to a parasite, Atrophy is the parasite or the bacterium losing its cube forever.
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Jorik
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coralsaw wrote:
HerrJork wrote:
not according to a later ruling of Phil:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/23970829#23970829
Quote:
Hello TC, this is a good point. I agree with Matt, and have changed the living rules in E3 and H4 to agree with the glossary entry for disease: Mutations are never lost or demoted by disease (only suffer stolen chromosomes).

I think you got it wrong here. From the Glossary:
Quote:
A Mutation is in lockstep with its Mutation cubes: loss of its card (e.g. in a UV event) means loss of its cubes as well, and loss of its cubes (e.g. in an Atrophy) loses its card well. This lockstep is honored even if the card is with a Host and the cubes with a Parasite.


In the linked thread, Phil said that a Mutation is never lost or demoted by disease, not Atrophy. Disease is moving the cube to a parasite, Atrophy is the parasite or the bacterium losing its cube forever.


ok it's clear now, trying to wrap my head around the rules is a challenge, and vaguely remembering rule threads that you've read is bound to cause confusion.

maybe I should play tic-tac-toe instead
 
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Yani
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HerrJork wrote:

ok it's clear now, trying to wrap my head around the rules is a challenge, and vaguely remembering rule threads that you've read is bound to cause confusion.

maybe I should play tic-tac-toe instead


Glad I helped. FWIW, I have played almost all of Phil's games, going back to Lords of the Sierra Madre, Pancho Villa etc. When I picked up Bios Genesis, it took me 3+ times to grok the rules, and as you can see from the threads, I had several questions. The best thing to do imo to get the game groked is:

a) print the living rules
b) lay the game out and set it up
c) start reading the rules and play as you go
d) forget any edge case that comes up (aka rules rabbitholes), just houserule it and go, this is a throw away game

So keep on it, it's very likely not you, it's the rulebook. I've toyed many times with the idea of rewriting an Eklund rulebook, just to test myself..
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Jorik
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coralsaw wrote:
HerrJork wrote:

ok it's clear now, trying to wrap my head around the rules is a challenge, and vaguely remembering rule threads that you've read is bound to cause confusion.

maybe I should play tic-tac-toe instead


Glad I helped. FWIW, I have played almost all of Phil's games, going back to Lords of the Sierra Madre, Pancho Villa etc. When I picked up Bios Genesis, it took me 3+ times to grok the rules, and as you can see from the threads, I had several questions. The best thing to do imo to get the game groked is:

a) print the living rules
b) lay the game out and set it up
c) start reading the rules and play as you go
d) forget any edge case that comes up (aka rules rabbitholes), just houserule it and go, this is a throw away game

So keep on it, it's very likely not you, it's the rulebook. I've toyed many times with the idea of rewriting an Eklund rulebook, just to test myself..

I know.
I can play Bios:Magefauna without rule lookups, Pax Porfiriana with only a few lookups and will grok this eventually too. I was playing solo yesterday evening and the question came up when the yellow player failed his Darwin roll for his parasite that was hogging blues' cube. I vaguely remebered threads I read and was confused. next try tonight or maybe tommorrow, there are more SPIEL games I have to try out.
I was almost at a point where one player could get to macro level but I relaised I hadn't read those rules completely yet so I stopped (it was past 2300 already too, so a bit tired which doesn't help with SMG titles)
the rules support for Bios:Genesis is really great, and not just Phil Eklund's activity but all the users who had questions answered and are happy to pass along the knowledge.
 
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Rich James
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I'm not sure this thread reached a definitive answer to the question of what to do when a parasite needs to atrophy a cube that is from a promoted mutation and that promoted mutation still has its "+" cube.

The glossary entry for Atrophy says this about atrophied diseased cubes:
Quote:
Atrophied Diseased Cubes. If your Parasite atrophies a Diseased cube (E3), this causes the Mutation which lost the cube originally to be discarded or unpromoted per the previous bullet.

Note that this does not declare that in all cases the mutation is lost when a diseased cube is atrophied. Instead it says the mutation is discarded or unpromoted per the previous bullet. Here's what that previous bullet says:

Quote:
Atrophied Mutations. If the Mutation cube marked with a “+” is atrophied from a promoted Mutation, the Mutation is flipped (i.e demoted). A Mutation cube atrophied from an unpromoted Mutation discards it. All Mutations discarded are placed face-up on the bottom of the Mutation deck in the Microorganism’s home row. The discarding player chooses the order discarded.

This addresses two cases, but not the one we need an answer for. It addresses:
1. atrophying the "+" cube of a promoted mutation.
2. atrophying the sole cube of an unpromoted mutation.

What is missing is what to do when atrophying the non-"+" cube of a promoted mutation. This is not allowed if the mutation has both its cubes, per this from the initial text under Atrophy:

Quote:
Mutations cubes with a “+” (on promoted Mutations) must be lost before other Mutation cubes, and this demotes the Mutation.

So maybe this is the answer? Does the above statement prohibit a parasite from atrophying a diseased non-"+" cube on a promoted mutation?

If so, how does a parasite handle an atrophy event when it occurs? Say the parasite has just the one diseased non-"+" cube from a promoted mutation. Also, the parasite has no mutations of its own. What is atrophied in this case?
 
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Dom B.
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arjisme wrote:
If so, how does a parasite handle an atrophy event when it occurs? Say the parasite has just the one diseased non-"+" cube from a promoted mutation. Also, the parasite has no mutations of its own. What is atrophied in this case?

I would refer to the Mutation definition: "A Mutation is in lockstep with its Mutation cubes: loss of its card (e.g. in a UV event) means loss of its cubes as well, and loss of its cubes (e.g. in an Atrophy) loses its card well". So in your case, the parasite would atrophy the diseased cube and its host would demote the mutation.
 
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Rich James
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Dom22 wrote:
I would refer to the Mutation definition: "A Mutation is in lockstep with its Mutation cubes: loss of its card (e.g. in a UV event) means loss of its cubes as well, and loss of its cubes (e.g. in an Atrophy) loses its card well". So in your case, the parasite would atrophy the diseased cube and its host would demote the mutation.

The problem I see with this is when the host demotes the mutation, there will be no cube on the demoted mutation -- the needed cube will have been lost by atrophy. If the rule is to atrophy the diseased cube, then the mutation would need to demote and also lose its "+" cube in the process, resulting in a mutation with no cubes. That, in turn, means the mutation is lost. So a big impact for an atrophy event on a parasite. This may be the intended effect, but I am not sure.

Another way I can see this being handled is that the diseased cube cannot be atrophied (since the mutation is promoted and "+" cubes should atrophy first), so the biont in the parasite is atrophied as it is the only candidate to atrophy. That would mean the extinction of the parasite and the diseased cube would return to the mutation. So an O2 spike, for example, could lead to curing a diseased mutation.

But, again, I am not sure which is the correct way to play under the rules.
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