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Subject: Pretty disappointed with balance... : { rss

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Bojan Prakljacic
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Alright, lets go straight to the problem:
I've played multiple times the first scenario using either Daisy Walker or Agnes Baker during solitary play, and I'm yet to see a win in that scenario with those 2 investigators. These girls just can't match the enemies, even when you get your good Spells or Tomes out. If you are lucky on the draw, you will have what you need pretty quickly, which will only prolong your suffering a bit more. No luck on the draw and if you get 2 or more harder enemies kiss your bottom bye-bye, once the Ghoul Priest come out it's basically finished.
I even tried playing with both of them in tandem. Nope. Still trying to make at least one win.

In the meantime, Skid's o Tool is rolling through the first scenario like a boss. He alone can, with some luck, stay even unscratched through the whole thing. Wendy is also a solid machine, especially with that power of hers where you can discard card to cancel the chaos token result and draw a new one. Almost OP. Roland Banks is almost like Skid's, can do most of the stuff alone.

I tried different deck builds, but you can't do much with the one core set. Basically you have already pre-made deck and that's it.

If you want to always win: Skid's and Wendy are your duet.
Now I understand why they suggest to use her and Banks when you are doing a first story. Because, they might even lose - ha!

Could it be that game was rushed and these things went under the radar somehow? Is it suppose to be like that because Agnes and Daisy are for the more 'experienced' players? Am I doing something wrong? I did follow all descriptions how to make their decks, and I have tried some (but not much since you are very limited to deck build with one core set) different settings for cards. Still, this is my list of useful investigators by the percentage of the win per scenario:

1. Skid's o Tole
2. Wendy Adams
3. Roland Banks
4. Agnes Baker
5. Daisy Walker.

Daisy Walker should walk out of this game since she is like 100% fail.
Don't send the Librarian to do a men's work I guess.

Anyone else had same experience?
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Bradford Lounsberry
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I haven't played Agnes or Skids yet, but my experiences have been similar. I'm struggling building a deck that will make Daisy work well solo. Though part of it is that I'm just not clicking with her playstyle. It is quite different than Wendy or Roland. I'm going to give it more time before I pass judgement.
 
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Bojan Prakljacic
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Heh. I even made a combo of her Medicine tome and her pendant thinking I'm gonna be a healing machine with a free action on tomes.

NOPE.

Tried the Lore for combat combo (because she really sucks in evading).

NOPE.

Just. Doesn't. Work.


But, I'm not gonna give up. Gonna play until I score a first win, damn it! I'm stubborn like that.
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jérémy royaux
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hmm that's a very disappointing news
thx for info thought
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Pascal Lefebvre
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Doesn't that just mean that those two characters are a bit weaker with just a core set? Would they work better with more reliable card draws and more focused combos, for those owning two core sets?
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Richard A. Edwards
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Since the first scenario has 4 different resolutions, none of which say "win", what is it that you are looking for in terms of a "win"?

One of the things I love about the game is that it's not necessarily about killing every monster nor exploring every room. It's about doing the best you can with what fate deals you. I'm not sure I could discuss "balance" in such a variable game with so many possible outcomes.

Do you mean every game you've played your investigator is Defeated?

It took me a while to learn to accept "Resign", but a lot of times that's the best outcome given how the game plays out.
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Rob s
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Thanks for sharing. If true this would be disappointing.

I wondered about how the characters would be balanced. Is it possible that balancing will occur as they add expansions/mythos packs? This will be my first LCG so I'm unsure how the balancing occurs.
 
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Kain
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I'm not surprised that some characters will fall into support category though. Roland is an excellent solo character. But he needs support when played with more investigators.
 
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Darius Blackwell
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I think that main thing to remember here is that this is co-op game that will develop in campaign. Sure Skids is my man also with 2 starter sets he is ace - but we dont know what waits ahead - Daisy is clue saping machine she can suck clues of locations faster than anyone - and maybe in some pack there will be a mission without much fight but with much clues needed to close it ?
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David Boeren
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8Oj4N wrote:
I've played multiple times the first scenario using either Daisy Walker or Agnes Baker during solitary play, and I'm yet to see a win in that scenario with those 2 investigators.

I even tried playing with both of them in tandem. Nope. Still trying to make at least one win.

I tried different deck builds, but you can't do much with the one core set.


How are you playing Daisy and Agnes in tandem with a single Core set?

If you want to fight the Ghoul Priest, most characters have multiple weapons they can use. Agnes and Daisy pretty much have one, Shriveling. With only one copy in their deck, you're going to rely on luck to get it and then have to save those charges for the Ghoul Priest meaning you may need to resort to a backup attack against other enemies and they're short on these.

The characters with an innately high combat stat rely less on weapons and have more choices of which weapons to use so they're not going to tend to get stuck in this situation.

This isn't a point against the character's balance though, it's a point against inconsistent single core decks. With 2xShriveling the "problem" diminishes significantly and both characters can draw them more reliably with Arcane Initiate too. As the card pool grows and we get more offensive spells, it will vanish entirely.

But as Richard pointed out you don't actually have to defeat him in the first scenario either, you can escape and confront him again later, perhaps after having spent the XP you earned in the first scenario to beef up your deck a bit.
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Derek J
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I haven't played with everyone yet but I did try a Agnes/Skids deck against the first scenario. Against the location that has 4 shroud, I found it extremely hard to amass enough clues to get past the second act. It didn't help that I had to keep setting up my turns in order to get enough skill cards and then I either have to deal with an enemy off the encounter deck or I would draw a -3/-4/tentacle and auto fail. Was kind of frustrating with characters that didn't have any in-faction way to boost their Intellect easily.

I might have to bring Daisy along as support and have her pair up with someone who can fight better.

I like the concept that Agnes brings to the table but once you burn through her spells all she has is Willpower that she can test which helps with some treacheries but doesn't help her do much of anything else without her spells. Having the charges on the spells with no easy way to recharge them really hurts her.

I will admit I'm still fairly new to the game though so I may just suck at it so far.
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J. Chris Miller
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The game is not designed to play with 1 investigator. They said that simply to include solo gamers in their marketing. It's like if you were to play an actual RPG solo and your class was healer. You're not going to beat the big dragon by just healing yourself a bunch.

It saddens me that they did market the game this way because I for one don't want it to be a true solo. I want each class to be unique enough to offer benefits to the other classes as a team. That's what RPGs are all about.

So I'm sorry for your disappointment, but I for one am happy with what they have done so far, but I hope they go even more in the direction of fleshing out each class as its own entity instead of "balancing" the game by making everyone a different type of tank. That's boring.

Just play two handed if you care that much about playing solo, but it would be a travesty to this game if they focused primarily on solo gamers and not on developing the classes as individuals that can contribute unique strengths to a team.
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Bradford Lounsberry
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It works great solo. That is the only way I've played it so far except for one time 2-handed. One of the best true solo I've seen. Just because there are a couple investigators who have a more challenging time solo doesn't mean the game isn't designed for solo. All investigators can finish the campaign solo. You are overreacting.
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Nushura
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I don't have the game, so I cannot give a proper opinion yet...but I can compare with Lord of The Rings LCG and the tactics sphere.

Tactics is a sphere/faction that can reliably handle all monsters but has little willpower (in terms of AH, it has very little investigation). This means that they have very few ways of exploring/getting investigation icons.

Of course with the large card pool it is become more and more feasible to make a tactics only deck that can handle many different adventures, but I would say that even now most of the time this sphere is paired with another one that can cover for its weaknesses....and I don't see why this is a bad thing.
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Xuzu Horror
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I have played solo all the way through with Agnes.

It was tough later on though.

On the first scenario, I was able to hold off on using Shriveling until the High Priest so I easily killed him off when the time came.

I also relied on some unusual techniques to kill other enemies along the way, such as allowing myself to take Horror to damage them since sometimes even a single damage can help.

The second scenario was much tougher for me. I didn't get the skill that helps boost my investigation until it was nearly too late so I did not do as well, but not awful.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I was able to defeat 4 out of 6 cultists (so 2 got away)


The end scenario though was quite tough on me. I did not win, but I did not lose either.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I kept on getting very difficult enemies to defeat so I had to use up my Shriveling before I got Book of Shadows (upgrade to allow me to recharge spells). And, I was so busy taking care of enemies (that kept getting doom on them) that I wasn't getting clues quickly.

I was able to dispatch with the 2 cultists that had gotten away just before the Ancient One awoke. I was on Act 2, but could have been on Act 3 easily enough just by moving to the necessary location. I waited to prepare myself since I knew the doom would summon the Ancient One.

Honestly, with Lita and my Baseball Bat, Grotesque Statue (to let me draw 2 Chaos tokens and choose 1), and cards to help boost my attack on each of 3 attacks, I felt safe.

I forgot to mention, even though he had 10 hitpoints, I had gotten 1 horror from his attack so he had taken 1 damage.

With an attack doing 1 damage, the Baseball Bat doing 1 damage, and Lita adding 1 damage - it was 3 damage per attack.

I had enough cards to help to make it so that I could get as bad as -3 on an attack and not fail for any attack. Actually, the last 2 attacks, I could get -4.

I added enough to be 4 over his value first as a warmup, which I was glad since I drew the auto-fail token and the -4.

The 2nd time, I went for 3 over since I wanted to get the tough one out of the way. I drew the special token that was added for the scenario (that is -5) and drew the -4 again as well. Yep, I'd failed.

At most now I'd only give him 7 damage before he'd attack.

Lita and I had enough damage that the next attack would kill us both so I sacrificed Lita.

But, as you can see, had I not had very bad luck, I would have beaten him (though not before he awoke).


I honestly, very much enjoy playing Agnes, but it is pretty risky playing her as she relies on a couple cards strongly (her bat and Shriveling). She would VERY much benefit from having a 2nd Shriveling.

I will try playing with others solo soon. I will probably go with an easier character like Roland or Skids just to see what it's like.

There's a reason why they recommend Roland if playing solo for the first time. There are no doubt certain characters that work better with a team than alone, as not everyone is meant to do everything.

Edit: Should note that I played with Standard difficulty.
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Richard A. Edwards
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I find the campaign plays great solo with one investigator. I like Daisy best. But then I don't worry about "winning", play on Easy, and just have a blast with the story experience.

It could be we're talking apples and oranges. One of the cool things about the game is some can play each scenario standalone repeatedly building the best deck for the best investigator for that scenario while others play from a starting deck list with their favorite character and have varying outcomes from one scenario after another until the end of the campaign.

That the game can support such varied experiences is brilliant.
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Immortal
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Daisy and agnes are not so good solo imo. But in 2 or more players, they rock. You really dont have to worry about clues with daisy and the scry card with agnes is just too good for the encounter manipulation.
 
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Bojan Prakljacic
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SirRoke wrote:
Since the first scenario has 4 different resolutions, none of which say "win", what is it that you are looking for in terms of a "win"?

One of the things I love about the game is that it's not necessarily about killing every monster nor exploring every room. It's about doing the best you can with what fate deals you. I'm not sure I could discuss "balance" in such a variable game with so many possible outcomes.

Do you mean every game you've played your investigator is Defeated?

It took me a while to learn to accept "Resign", but a lot of times that's the best outcome given how the game plays out.


Well, if I'm inclined to skip taking some investigators because my only options when I play with them is to either resign or take traumas, then I'm not gonna play with those investigators. And that's the whole point of this rant.

It's not about winning. It is about lousy balance.
Fact is: take Daisy and play solo and your chances in campaign are not the same as those of Wendy or Skid's. And you can't do noting about it because deckbulding in the core set, as it is now, is non-existent basically.

Sure, I can play every scenario and had one option: to resign every scenario. Might be entertaining for some, but not to me. So, game is leading my hand to stay away from those investigators, which I will do.
And not all people will play this game with friends. Those that like soloing here is the advice: Don't play Agnes or Daisy, unless you like to have a choice of no choice.

Now, the game is good, might be the best thing FFG ever produced by now. I'm not bashing the game because I hate it, on the contrary, this bugs me because I really like the game and I guess I wanted it to be perfect.
But, sadly, it isn't.

The one thing that is a mayor factor of this dis-balance is the decision to have a rule that you have to evade every enemy not as a group, but individually. You burn your first actions on fight or evading every time you are engaged with an enemy. You burn them more if you fail. One or two fails while you are engaged with two enemies and you are hampered down to do anything else that scenario requires. Basically, the whole scenario becomes a Benny Hill show the moment you start evading enemies and not killing them. It should have been addressed different.
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Kelly B
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I love the fact that there are many ways to end a scenario. It means that it allows any kind of win or play. It's not about winning, it is about the narrative and the story and I totally respect the designers. As someone who visited Arkham Nights and saw them talk I'm completely in a new frame of mind about their talents. I remember when Matt was part of the LOTR scene and when he got hired at FFG and here I see what he wanted all along.

This is really an achievement. It's not about misbalance, it is about the narrative.

If someone wants a co-op challenge which is about win and loss then LOTR LCG is there for you, or Ghost Stories or any number of countless games. Hell, even Mansions of Madness 2.0, which totally changed my perceptions about device requirements, tells a good story and draws a thick line about win/loss is there.

AH the Card Game is about story. Admittedly I've only played the first scenario with one player, two players, and four players--I'm savoring it and have experienced ALL endings--but I am completely absorbed.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Edit: I'm FINALLY playing the second scenario tomorrow with my group. Four of us will delve. I appreciate Daisy's ability to gather clues for our group. She earned Lita and damn she is now our MVP.


Edit 2: PS: My bias has many tendrils and I respect anyone's opinion. I love the AH files from FFG (books, games, etc...). Also, gaming for me is more about the group I play with than it is about the game mechanics themselves. If a game's enjoyment is about a thick line you can draw between winning and losing then perhaps this might not be the game for you. For me it's a relief.
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Derek J
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happycatmachine wrote:
If someone wants a co-op challenge which is about win and loss then LOTR LCG is there for you, or Ghost Stories or any number of countless games.

AH the Card Game is about story.


Yeah, I'm formulating my thoughts the longer I play this game and the more experience I get with it but so far something feels like it doesn't gel with me. I think it's definitely the more story driven approach of the game that I'm not entirely used to.

I'm a huge fan of LOTR LCG since I love deck building, min/maxing my deck against the encounter deck. And having the result be a win/loss validates the effort I make into my deck. Having the shades of gray for AH, while cool story-wise, kind of reduces the impact of that validation.

It may also be that I'm playing this game solo so I lose out on sharing the story with others. When you play solo it kind of turns into me VS the game.
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Taylor Parolini
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I feel like Daisy is definitely designed to be part of a team, and she does her thing incredibly well. With two core sets anyways, Agnes is actually a surprisingly strong combatant, you just have to know how to play her.
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Jonathon Neff
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I don't know... I kind of enjoy it actually. I don't think every investigator should be able to handle every type of situation. If the game was perfectly balanced, what would individualize the classes? Granted, as the card pool increases I feel that's where we'll end up, but I enjoy the idea that during those eight scenario campaigns, sometimes the character we pick just won't be able to cut it, and it'll turn into a race of how much xp you can get before you have to resign.

I just feel the game will fall a little flat when you blur the line too much between classes and give them a stable answer to everything.
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Milen Krastev
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Its Lotr Lcg core set all over again! whistle
All this will get fixed with expansions. This is still disappointing, but its only temporary.
 
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mplain
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1) Yes there is an imbalance between classes.

2) It's not a problem, because this is mainly a co-op game, and it makes sense that some classes play the support role and can't tank solo.

3) It'll get better as the card pool expands (sorry =_=), and the solo enthusiasts will be able to play any class they wish. Just not yet.
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Bojan Prakljacic
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I think i should have also posted an explanations under which conditions I have played with these investigators.

Testing was done in Tabletop Simulator, where you can easily copy all cards from the core set thus making it like you had 2 or 3 core sets. All games were played on easy settings, solitary and 2 players with Daisy and Agnes. I've played only first scenario and the second one. but, mostly just first trying to gain a most positive outcome.
Even under those circumstances Agnes and Daisy are not competitive enough when you put them against other investigators. Easy setting is standard for them, while standard is hard. Can't even imagine the expert setting...

I have played around 40 games of the first scenario using those two, and 20 games of the second scenario, also with them. All 40 games of the first scenario have been finished by resigning or taking some kind of trauma. Second one, I've managed to get 2 unique cultist which made the third scenario... Well, rape, to be honest.

Thing is, as pointed somewhere above, you will have to buy at least 2 core sets to make them somewhat good. Not good as other investigators, but 'passable'.

Since the game with shipping to my country cost the same as 3 core sets, this is sadly, a big pass for me.

Great game though. And as you can see, has a replay-ability even when you go through all the scenarios, for us that like to challenge and test same scenario to get a perfect score. Just, no balance out of the box, and demands that you have to buy more core sets. :]

it is a business in the end.
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