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Space Hulk (fourth edition)» Forums » Variants

Subject: New hybrids in old missions? rss

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Dan Sander
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English is my second language, so I apologize in advance for any misspelling or grammar errors.

I have played quite a bit of Space Hulk with the rules from the Genestealer expansion, using Chaos Space Marines and Imperial Guard models with appropriate weapons as proxy models for the hybrids. However, as many others, I have longed for decent hybrid miniatures to use in my games. Now that GW finally released Deathwatch: Overkill along with a full-blown Genestealer Cult army, this is about to come true.
I still have a few problems, though; in many of the old missions the hybrids have some really odd weapon combos, some of which are not ”legal” weapons in a Genestealer Cult. I could, of course, just convert them to have the weapons given in the SH missions, but then I would end up with a number of models that would see very little time on the game board. Since I want a set of hybrid minis that are usable in Space Hulk, Deathwatch: Overkill, 40K and maybe even Necromunda, I have tinkered with the idea of streamlining the SH hybrid armory to better fit the models available. I have tried to keep it as close as possible to the original weapons set.
Please keep in mind, none of these ideas have been playtested yet. Here goes:

Lasguns and boltguns in Space Hulk have exactly the same statline, the only exception being that boltguns benefit from the Sustain Fire rule. Therefore, both are replaced with autoguns (standard armament for neophytes) using the statline for lasguns.

Laspistols and bolt pistols are replaced with autopistols, as above.

Chainsword is replaced with boneknife, simply counting as a close assault weapon (giving +1 to assault).

Power sword gives hybrids +2 to close assault, so it is replaced with the acolyte hybrid from Deathwatch: Overkill wielding two boneknives (simple rule: +1 per boneknife).

Missile launcher and heavy bolter stays the way they are.

The autocannon is represented by the heavy stubber.

Lascannon is replaced by mining laser, keeping the same statline as the lascannon.

Conversion beamer is replaced by the seismic cannon, also keeping the beamer’s statline (assuming the seismic cannon does more damage the more massive the target is).

And now for the most bold conversion, the plasma weapons... since the Genestealer Cult does not have access to plasma weapons in the codex, I have thought of replacing them with web weapons, as per the following rules: The webgun and web pistol uses the same to hit rolls as the plasma gun and plasma pistol, respectively (though they need not recharge). However, if a Space Marine is hit, he is not killed, but entangled, and is unable to take action in the Space Marine player’s next round. If assaulted, resolve the assault as if the marine was attacked from the side. If he survives the initial assault, he is free from the web and may act normally. At the end of the Marine player’s turn, the genestealer player rolls to hit again. If the roll succeeds, the marine is killed, if it fails, the marine has freed himself and may act normally.
Alternately, the marine must spend 4 AP/CP to free himself from the web.

This would potentially make web weapons very powerful, as it is most likely that the webbed marine will block the way for other marines behind him. Maybe web weapons should carry a limited amount of ammo...?

The heavy plasma gun is simply replaced with a second mining laser (since there is no heavy webber to put on your models).

Thoughts?
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Philip Lodge
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Looks like you've done the hardwork for me... I need to add the new weapons to my Space Hulk Weapons table.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzUqoUE_JiOua1NGUXo5c0hwWG...

But hadn't researched much into them yet. I won't be replacing the weapon, simply adding the new ones.

As for balancing the individual mission Hybrid tables, making the new models match, I don't think it matters much, they never did balance, even if they did, the randomness of what blip you pick would simply offset against it. Simply use a new table. That been said your 100% spot on with the swaps.

I always thought the Conversion Beamer was not necessarily massiver but denser (which works more in thematical logic to me) but I could be wrong. It is THE best weapon, takes some getting into position with my mods but once it's there, devastation!!!

As for Codex... If i want to play a different game, I don't care what the codex says, lol... If my hybrid picked up a Beamer, Plasma Gun, it can use it, rip the physics from a different codex. I'd never let a codex dictate what I put on the table...

I spent a long time resculpting a Genestealer Expansion Hybrid to hold a Conversion Beamer convincingly, I will **ck*** use it. Those Heavy weapons never really did go on too well. Wasted a few claws in the process, nearly lost the Beamer and that Autocannon needs a bit of carving too, not cheap on ebay these days.

The bolder the conversion the better, I'm liking this webber. Might leave out the dieing bit, I need to check the physics/lore. Simply trapping the marine for a turn is a huge tactical variant to the game. This is exactly what having different weapons should be about. Keeping recharge should balance them.


Edit: the list will have the new weapons added by later tonight, same link.

 
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Dan Sander
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Thank you for your comprehensive reply. I have been throwing around these ideas in my own head for quite a while now, so I really appreciate some feedback.
I have read your ideas to streamline the classification of targets (Heavy=Terminator, Blip, Purestrain, door, Medium=Acolyte, Marine in power armour, Light=Guardsmen, Neophytes) and I think it's brilliant. It keeps the spirit of the original rules but reduces the unnecessary complexity.

mitchiemasha wrote:

As for balancing the individual mission Hybrid tables, making the new models match, I don't think it matters much, they never did balance, even if they did, the randomness of what blip you pick would simply offset against it. Simply use a new table. That been said your 100% spot on with the swaps.


I've been thinking the same, that I don't need to be "faithful" to the old hybrid tables. However, it is nice to hear it from someone else.
Using Autoguns/pistols is just out of convenience, since Las- and Bolt weapons are so similar anyway.

mitchiemasha wrote:

I always thought the Conversion Beamer was not necessarily massiver but denser (which works more in thematical logic to me) but I could be wrong. It is THE best weapon, takes some getting into position with my mods but once it's there, devastation!!!
/.../
I spent a long time resculpting a Genestealer Expansion Hybrid to hold a Conversion Beamer convincingly, I will **ck*** use it.


I totally respect that! Jokes aside, I don't own a Conversion Beamer and haven't been able to whip up a decent conversion of it. I just figured the Seismic Cannon could be a suitable stand-in.

mitchiemasha wrote:

As for Codex... If i want to play a different game, I don't care what the codex says, lol... If my hybrid picked up a Beamer, Plasma Gun, it can use it, rip the physics from a different codex. I'd never let a codex dictate what I put on the table...


I get that. Personally, I just feel that if I get around to play Deathwatch: Overkill and the card says "Hybrids with Autopistols", I just can't pull out a bunch of hybrids with Bolt Pistols, Laspistols and Plasma Pistols. Maybe I suffer from a touch of OCD, but I understand that's common among us geeks. whistle

mitchiemasha wrote:

The bolder the conversion the better, I'm liking this webber. Might leave out the dieing bit, I need to check the physics/lore. Simply trapping the marine for a turn is a huge tactical variant to the game. This is exactly what having different weapons should be about. Keeping recharge should balance them.


Thank you. Good point there. I think the old wargear book (40k 2nd ed) says that web weapons causes the target's Strength in Wounds as the target struggles to break free from the web.
Having the target spend 4 APs to break free would force the player to spend CPs to take further action with the model, which could be a suitable effect.
Recharge would be a balancing limitation, but it just doesn't... feel right for web weapons. I think I would prefer a limited amount of ammo.
Now you've done it! Now I want Plasma weapons AS WELL as Web weapons for my hybrids. devil

mitchiemasha wrote:

Edit: the list will have the new weapons added by later tonight, same link.


Looking forward to it! I also like your idea of hybrid close assault dice (Purestrain: 3D6, Acolyte: 2D6, Neophyte: 1D6, Heavy Weapon: -2). That would justify the ridiculously large bases the Acolytes come with!
Just a question: does this replace the old rules for chainsword/powersword/any cc weapon? Or do you use an additional weapon-based modifier?
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Philip Lodge
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The close assault rules are the same as the original but expanded a bit. A chunky Hybrid with 1 claw and a chainsaw would role 2d6. With out the chainsaw 2d6 -1rm. A hybrid with no claws has a -2rm, the same as standard rules.

I felt the mid level hybrids only rolling 1d6, the same as practically human Hybrids was a bit not good. So it's claws determine roll modifier (basically they are a close assault weapon) and generation determines dice rolled, the 2 interlink.

I decided to add the wording 'negates' -rm instead of a 'plus', I didn't want the same rules to clash for different sides. Terminators with a Chainfist get no CA bonus, as it's considered they already have the bonus by default, which is exactly the same bonus a powerfist gets, for those not armed with a Chainfist.

Now with a pistol, 1 claw and a chainsaw, a Hybrid can have +1rm. It sounds a lot more complicated on paper than it actually is. The easy way to play is to simply arm your models correctly so they have no roll modifier to worry about, unless a Heavy weapon of course. Same goes for Space Marine models.
 
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Mark
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DanSander wrote:
Now that GW finally released Deathwatch: Overkill along with a full-blown Genestealer Cult army, this is about to come true.
I still have a few problems, though; in many of the old missions the hybrids have some really odd weapon combos, some of which are not ”legal” weapons in a Genestealer Cult. I could, of course, just convert them to have the weapons given in the SH missions, but then I would end up with a number of models that would see very little time on the game board. Since I want a set of hybrid minis that are usable in Space Hulk, Deathwatch: Overkill, 40K and maybe even Necromunda, I have tinkered with the idea of streamlining the SH hybrid armory to better fit the models available. I have tried to keep it as close as possible to the original weapons set.

Thoughts?

I like the work done here! Personally, I still have my old (25+ years!) plastic and metal Hybrids from the good old Genestealer expansion and my original Genestealer Cult Army. With all the odds-and-ends weapons of the day.

BUT, if I were starting a NEW Genestealer Cult (GSC) from scratch (and I did, I couldn't resist the NEW GSC), I would do a complete reset with Space Hulk. I would pattern the hybrid rules in Space Hulk to fit the new models and their weapons. Why not? The new GSC is fantastic! Imagine if GW released a modern Genestealer expansion for Space Hulk. Of course the expansion would forgo the older, obsolete weapons, and pattern its new rules on the new Cult. Additionally, for the ambitious tinkerer, the stats and rules in Death Watch: Overkill are roughly analogous to Space Hulk. So, it's easy to make direct comparisons and interpretations.

That's not to say the work ya'll done is superfluous. It's NOT. I'm only saying that you can, and should be comfortable approaching this from a "miniature first" point of view, if it suits you, too. The new hybrid weapons are somewhat analogous to the older ones, anyway.

Now, I'm not an expert with using hybrids in Space Hulk. But, I do have some hard-earned observations:

Because Terminators (mankind's best, and best equipped warriors) fight with a 1D6, EVERYONE south of Purestrains (and maybe Acolytes) will fight with negative Close Assault modifiers. Awkward, but true.

Hybrids with weapons that affect sections (vice targets) can change a game with one shot. When one shot kills 3 out of 5 Terminators, "Game over, Man!" Just saying.

When BOTH sides have guns, all you need to know is Move & Fire goes before Overwatch. And, a model on Overwatch can not fire with Overwatch during its own turn (it could fire using a Command Point, but would lose Overwatch).

Finally, the "ridiculous" base size for Acolytes and some other models in the DW:OK Genestealer Cult are associated with the model's "additional" properties in that game. Typically, enhanced armor save, or extra attacks. Because DW:OK puts a premium on how many models can fit into one zone, this is somewhat of a limiting factor on the amount of combat strength that can fill a zone. And, maybe sorta limits the number of attacks Acolytes can muster in the 40K game. Maybe. Otherwise, base size would have no effect in Space Hulk (or Assassinorum, or Battle for Calth).

Again, love and appreciate your efforts. Just confirming you don't have to be constrained by older rules. Especially, if starting up with the NEW GSC.
 
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Philip Lodge
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Yeah!!! It was this thread that got me thinking again so I've made a few changes to my mods, I'd really appreciate if you check them out...

Quote:
Because Terminators (mankind's best, and best equipped warriors) fight with a 1D6, EVERYONE south of Purestrains (and maybe Acolytes) will fight with negative Close Assault modifiers. Awkward, but true.


Although that is how I play it, it doesn't have to be so... One could argue that the Terminator armour hinders them in close assault, where as a space marine can manoeuvre faster.

I've finally thought of a way to bring in familiars, they share a square with another model and take the first wound, kind of like body points for the model they come with. Possibly a +1CA but it's not wrote in yet!

The weapons table is a lot sexier, they are now grouped by class, pistol/standard/heavy, rather than type in alphabetical. It's easier to follow, with the new weapons added and some mods to old. An essential fix of more weapons with 2d6 were needed thanks to models that require doubles that hit.

I've added a new mechanic to the Melta, using the pitfal tokens (but you don't fall through, it just cost more to pass) any excuse to add a use to tokens we have but see lil use. New tweak to the Conversion Beamer, same idea as before, just improved to fit the game better.

Should the Seismic cannon be an area weapon, a burst of sound/vibration in LoS or is it focused? How about 2 options? Focused 2d6, area 1d6 each.

Edit: We could make the pitfall tokens the Meltas Ammo, i'll have to check how many they are in Deathwing. If the mission is multi level it falls through, use the shadow, if not multi level, just costs more to pass.
 
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