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Subject says it all. Very curious about this game in relationship to Napoleon's Triumph which from all accounts sounds like a phenomenal low-luck tactical war game.

How does this game compare? Pros/cons?

This is still affordable, NT is a bit out of the realm of acceptable cost for me, though I'd be willing to wait around for it if Guns isn't its equal (or very appealing different).

Thanks in advance for all of your feedback!

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Jesse Escobedo
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Rockville
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If you are looking for an entirely unique wargaming experience, this will work as well as Napoleon's Triumph for that. The two games are very different though, reflecting the differences in warfare.
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Derry Salewski
United States
Augusta
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Meh.

Napoleon's triumph is probably worth it. And completely resellable if you decide it isn't.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Arcata
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For the sake of your wallet, hopefully you'll hear from a lot of people who disagree with me, but: I think NT is maybe the best game ever made, and I haven't been able to get into GoG despite a couple of tries. Although they look similar, the rules are significantly different; knowing one doesn't help you learn the other.

Apart from the mechanical differences, and the fact that GoG has some random elements while NT doesn't, the games are modeling two very different styles of battles. In NT, the two armies begin the day in position, each unit deployed for its role in its commander's plan; the day is won by the side whose plan best survives the head-on impact with the enemy's plan. In GoG, the battle develops as both sides' reinforcements stream onto the field, and (I think) the game is won by the side which is best able to "improvise, adapt, seize their opportunities, and cope with adversity."

(Now, if I'd played GoG first, would I like it better? I don't think so, as I tend to prefer games where your plan begins during setup.)
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Sean McCormick
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Philadelphia
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GoG is a fine game and well worth picking up, but it's not an alternative for NT.
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Peter Sbirakos
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kuhrusty wrote:
For the sake of your wallet, hopefully you'll hear from a lot of people who disagree with me, but: I think NT is maybe the best game ever made, and I haven't been able to get into GoG despite a couple of tries. Although they look similar, the rules are significantly different; knowing one doesn't help you learn the other.

Apart from the mechanical differences, and the fact that GoG has some random elements while NT doesn't, the games are modeling two very different styles of battles. In NT, the two armies begin the day in position, each unit deployed for its role in its commander's plan; the day is won by the side whose plan best survives the head-on impact with the enemy's plan. In GoG, the battle develops as both sides' reinforcements stream onto the field, and (I think) the game is won by the side which is best able to "improvise, adapt, seize their opportunities, and cope with adversity."

(Now, if I'd played GoG first, would I like it better? I don't think so, as I tend to prefer games where your plan begins during setup.)


I have GoG and enjoy it immensely. I've never played NT and yet, the explanation above is probably the best I've read on the differences between the two.
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Scipio O.
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I'd say that Guns isn't NT's equal but it is "very appealing different."

A few links for more --

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/13628589

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/13465999#13465999

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1056624/does-anyone-not-gam...

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/13808191
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Barry Miller
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Saint Charles
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Am not sure what this answer may be worth to you as I've never played NT... but I have played GoG and it's my favorite wargame out of the thirty or so that I own (and love almost as much).

So if you're leaning toward GoG due to not being able to get a copy of NT for whatever reason... well, that's the exact situation I'm in and I feel no loss of for not having NT. GoG satisfies me just fine.

If that helps?

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Paul
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Hi,

I've played both, and I'll echo what's been written before--NT isn't the same as GoG and BaM isn't the same as either--they're all gems. Which is more beautiful, a sapphire or a diamond?

I just discovered NT about six months ago, and I've played four games so far--It's my favorite wargame of 40 years of playing. It just hits all the points with me--but I know others find it too abstract-too chess-like.

This doesn't mean in any way the NT is a better game than GoG. I like NT better, but you may like GoG better. Vive la difference!
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Henrik Reschreiter
United Kingdom
Poole
Dorset
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I have both, and played both lots; they are amazing games, nothing really else out there like them. Rachel has a very different take on things, just genius. She has an online diary as a website with thought, comments etc on the development process - well worth a read.

If you have a chance - get them both. You will not regret it, and both I am sure you could easily resell.

As others have said, having one benefits you little for the learning process of the other. And having played wargames before is almost a hindrance, as the approach to things here is so different, and having the baggage of other rules/systems actually slows you down as you think you know what she means, or you extrapolate rules which you must not do.

The rules are some of the most complete, succinct, and dense I have ever read. There is no duplication or redundancy at all. Every single sentence matters, literally every one.
When the games came out, there were lots and lots of rules questions, and I cannot remember a single one which was not in the rules already answered, but people didn't realise it, glossed over it, or read more into them than they should. Take every thing literally, nothing more, nothing less. Because of all this, they are quite hard to get into, but once it clicks, it works super well, ery straight forward, and fast.

And imagine: no dice, no drms, no combat charts, and still, you don't know how the combat plays out until the fighting starts - genius!
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Dallas Tucker
South Korea
Seoul
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I decided not to back GoG when it was on kickstarter, even though the theme appealed to me more (I grew up near Sharpsburg/Antietam and so not that far from Gettysburg). However, NT is such a good game that it has basically stopped all of my gaming purchases of longer games.

I have a few longer games that I like, like Imperial, Rex, and Axis and Allies, but I really only keep them around because I can't find people to play NT with very often. If I had a gaming buddy that was into NT, I don't know if I would play very many other games.

GoG seems cool, and I am sure it is worth the money, but I doubt it would replace NT on the table for me (for basically the reasons that kuhrusty outlined - I love games where I can customize my setup/strategy before the game begins).

I would have a hard time paying the going rates for NT, but, if you need some justification, it may stop you from purchasing games for a while, so it could save some money in the long run.
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Kåre Dyvik
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Stavanger
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I can subscribe to much of what has been said in this thread.

In my opinion, NT is the best of the two, as you have full control over your initial setup, your troops, and your plan. No random elements.

GoG is a different battle, a different system, several random elements which emphasize your ability to improvise based on the developing situation.

The games scratch different itches, but both are Rachel Simmons games, and deeply satisfying in their respective ways. They model the respective battles in ingenious ways, and provide for hours of interesting decision-making, risk-taking and suspense.

If you feel that NT is out of reach, do not hesitate to go for GoG!
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J DLM
United States
Illinois
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Just to parrot others, GoG is a very different game, mechanically, as both it and NT are tailored to simulate the battle tactics of the time to simulate the decisions of the historical characters involved. In a divergence from most, I prefer GoG, but only by a slim margin.
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Kåre Dyvik
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A point which hasn't been mentioned, is the way both games allow the players to switch effortlessly between the role of commander-in-chief, with overview of the whole battle, long-term goals and coordination of local actions, and the role of local captain who has to resolve an immediate battle, as attacker or defender.
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Jeff Kuhn
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Garner
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I'll chime in as well. Of course, as others have duly noted here, the games, while sharing some physical resemblances to each other, couldn't be any more different. So they are all well worth owning, for what that is worth. BaM will soon (presumably) be coming out with a second edition, as another data point for you.

Since that doesn't make your decision any easier, it may be helpful to put into context what type of feel each game provides. NT is exceedingly subtle. Perhaps the most subtle wargame I have ever played. In fact, so subtle that I largely fail to grasp it. (I am terrible at the game.) It has oftentimes, and aptly, been described as an intricate poker game. The game begins (as Rusty noted) during setup, and feint, bluff and bluster continue throughout. It is something of a fencing match. Prolonged, broadly strategic, and supremely satisfying.

GoG, OTOH, holds your interest in an entirely different way. Setup is much less of a factor, but the unknown of the randomized reinforcement schedule is a singularly brilliant way of giving you a feel for what this unpredictable battle was like. Like NT, maneuver is key (and this perhaps is the only attribute that is shared across all Simmons Games), however given the huge disparity in men and materiel for this period, it is much easier to become trapped in your lines. In GoG, you can trap your enemy and crush them with decisive force, which usually is not the case in NT because it is much more difficult to get your opponent to commit. GoG, therefore feels much more tactical in nature, and the conflict quickly becomes localized in a few key areas, much like the historical battle it represents. In fact, it tends to become a bit static, compared to the elegant fluidity of NT. Again, this reflects the hardware and military doctrine of the time and is achieved through the concept of "field of fire," which is not present in any other Simmons Game. But is entirely appropriate given the nature of the more modern weaponry.

BaM is a bit midway between the two. It emphasizes maneuver, and bringing the strength of your line at the weakness of your enemies. However, at some point it will require you to brute force your way through (especially if your opponent is playing well). It is more of a timed affair. As such, it has a definite tactical feel, but the overall force deployment is critical. Always hiding your strength to trot it out and just the right moment to shatter your foe, and break their resolve. It is largely dominated by its restricted field of play, thus it can get a bit samey. That said, I really have no idea how many times I have played it, and I cannot say I have ever lost interest in it because of this aspect. I expect it to go like fire when it gets released. Also, it is a shorter game than the other two.

(EDIT: it should also be noted that generally, the role of attacker and defender is assigned in this game. As with all things, there are exceptions. I have only seen it happen once, but the renowned BaM player George Fagin once played a Ladder match in which he went on the full scale offensive as the French. Leave it to George, who is a fantastic player. That is a very seldom seen event indeed!)

So, I would suggest that you decide what style of play you think might appeal best to you, and perhaps follow that lead first. However, like many, I expect once you are bitten with the "Simmons" bug, you will want them all. It is always amazing to me that completely disparate conflicts can be accurately portrayed (at least the feel of them is accurately portrayed) by the use of a very simple system and clever rules. It's all genius, really, so you can't go wrong.

Good luck and enjoy!
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Bob S.
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Grand Rapids
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I can't improve upon the great points already noted in the previous posts, but I will quickly toss in my two cents as well.

I purchased NT when it came out, drawn to the period, it's elegant appearance, and its unique system of mechanics. This is one of my favorite games, especially among the 100+ wargames I've owned. Like GoG, it uses a deterministic system for resolving conflicts - but one that provides so much opportunity for maneuver, bluff and discovery.

GoG had similar appeals for me, as well as the (by then) familiarity with Simmons' design and attention to detail. It too is a fascinating exercise, as well said by others above, completely different in undertaking. I have heard some grumble about the game *not* being the "actual" battle of Gettysburg since reinforcements are randomly distributed (using a great system) - but since it is an encounter battle, this representation (for me) gets at the heart of the battle better than the most micro-detailed representation. That unknown element creates the *setting* of Gettysburg wonderfully and produces a completely different gaming environment than NT (that I find satisfying as well).

As the OP noted, cost can be a factor - but so may be availability. Rachel is selling her remaining stock of NT via Amazon, for $150 USD each. The discussion thread is here:
http://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1638346/remaining-inventory-...

[Sorry: Haven't learned a more elegant way of inserting links yet.]

Whatever your decision, so long as you get at least one of GoG or NT, you won't lose.
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Barry Miller
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Saint Charles
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Borz wrote:
[Sorry: Haven't learned a more elegant way of inserting links yet.]

1) While you're composing/editing your post, click on the "Insert Geek Link" drop down menu, found above the editing window.

2) Click on "Thread"

3) Enter the thread's ID number in the "ID:" field, & click on "Go"

You can find the thread's ID number by several different means. The easiest is to simply navigate to the thread you want to link to, then select & copy the ID number from the URL showing in your browser's URL window at the top of your screen.

It's easy to find the Thread ID# for the thread that you linked to in your post... I can simply look at the URL that you provided to see that the Thread's ID# is 1638346. So I follow steps 1-3 from above to get something that looks like this, inserted into my post:

[thread=nnnnnnn][/thread]

(Where "nnnnnnn" would actually be "1638346").

So, the actual result when viewed will look like this:

Remaining inventory is being sold

The only tricky part is to be watchful of where in your post the link is inserted. It will typically insert itself at the very end of the last bit of text you've typed - and NOT where your cursor may be!

Hope this helps

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Barry Miller
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Borz wrote:
[Sorry: Haven't learned a more elegant way of inserting links yet.]

OK, after posting the above reply, I took the time to go and check out the thread you linked to, to find that it's five pages long! Ouch... don't have time for all that.

So considering that the point of your reply was to direct us to Rachel's specific post about NT being sold on Amazon (whereas most of the five pages deals with older, irrelevant e-Bay listings), there's also a way to link to a specific reply (or post, if you will), instead of the top of a thread (as I described above).

Follow the same three steps I outlined above, except instead of "Thread", you'll be clicking on "Reply".

You can find the target reply's ID number by clicking on the Date/Time stamp info in the bottom right corner of the reply/post. Then you'll see the URL for that specific reply showing in your URL window. As with the Thread ID#, you likewise select and copy the number found at the end (after the # symbol). Beware that the ID number is repeated twice. *

The ID# for the specific post that gets to the matter you were talking about is: 23900361
So the link will look like this in your editing window:

[article=nnnnnnnn][/article] (where "nnnnnnnn" would actually be "23900361")

And will look like this when viewed:

Re: Remaining inventory is being sold

* I think there's a more eloquent way of capturing the ID number, but I keep forgetting what it is!

And BTW, thank you for that link! I just bought a copy even though it was NOT on my "To Buy" list! This thread convinced me! Now I just have to hope my wife isn't home when the package arrives!

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Bob S.
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bgm1961 wrote:

And BTW, thank you for that link! I just bought a copy even though it was NOT on my "To Buy" list! This thread convinced me! Now I just have to hope my wife isn't home when the package arrives!


Thanks very much, Barry, for the detailed directions! Much appreciated.

And you're welcome! Glad you took the plunge. (And perhaps take your wife out for a coffee or something when you think the package should arrive...) Cheers.
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Barry Miller
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I solved the wife problem... she likes to do her Christmas shopping early and has been bugging for my Christmas List... which I usually give her and she buys what I ask for and I pay for it and pretend I don't see it when it's delivered.

So after I ordered NT today, I told her that my Christmas list was done and saved her the hassle of being the middleman! I promised that I wouldn't even open the package when it arrives... I'll just hand it to her (if I answer the door) and let her take it from there.

So I can mark my list complete and it's one less thing she has to do. A win-win!


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