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Shadows of Brimstone: City of the Ancients» Forums » Rules

Subject: Interaction Butcher's Blade - Void Hammer?! rss

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Jan Meyberg
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Hello all,

let's assume I had a three-handed bandido which has to choose one or the other nice melee weapon...
Let's further assume I decided to go with the Butcher's Blade (Frontier Town - Street Market) and a Void Hammer (Blacksmith)...

I could need some clarification about possible interactions of those two items:

Butcher's Blade: "Each time you wound an Enemy with a Combat Hit, you may add +1 Damage to all of your other Combat Hits for the rest of this turn (stacks for multiple Hits).

Void Hammer: "... and each hit does 1 automatic Wound to any Enemies adjacent to the target, ignoring defense."


a) Does the splash damage of the Void Hammer get the damage boost of Butcher's Blade?
I'm pretty sure NO, as it's a special rule and not a Combat Hit.

b) Does the Damage boost of Butcher's Blade triggers only for each Combat Hit of the Void Hammer or for each of its Splash Damage as well? I'd say only for each Combat Hit for game balance reasons, but RAW seem to indicate it should trigger each time I WOUND an enemy with a combat hit. Technical Problem: Are Splash damage wounds "damage through a combat hit" (in this case the ability would trigger) or are they an additional rule "triggered BY a combat hit" (in this case the Butcher's Blade would NOT trigger for splash damage)?

What do you think?



Edit for spelling and layout
 
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Joe Price
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This combination is very straight forward. The Blade specifically references Combat Hits. The Void Hammer splash is an automatic wound - that is not a Combat Hit, it is literally just a wound. A Combat Hit doesn't do wounds until after you roll damage and handle defense.
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Adria D
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I would probably go with what you've said: Butcher's Blade bonus damage applies only to the direct combat hits from the Void Hammer, and not to splash damage.

I believe it was said somewhere that anything that causes wounds also, by default, causes a hit. So for XP purposes, I've always treated the Void Hammer's splash damage as doing hits. However, I've never added bonus damage to splash damage, only to damage from direct combat hits.
 
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Joe Price
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Ah, true on the XP front. Though again, a "Combat Hit" is a "Hit", but a "Hit" is not necessarily a "Combat Hit". So an implicit "Hit" still doesn't qualify. Though there are flat +Damage abilities. We have been experimenting with those to try and keep dynamite a bit more relevant at the higher levels.
 
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Jan Meyberg
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Thank you for your insight! I'm pretty happy with your opinion, as it seconds my thoughts and prevents me from powergaming ;-)
Best regards, Jan
 
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Jee Fu
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Technically its a little funky.

No, splash Wounds DO NOT get +1 Damage from the stacking buff.

Yes, the Butchers Blade's stacking ability triggers off of those Wounds (because it says "each hit does 1 automatic Wound"). Your Combat Hits are "doing" these Wounds according to the Void Hammer text (even if they can't benefit from +1 Damage because they themselves are not Hits). So even if a "main" Combat Hit doesn't get through the Defense of the Enemy (or the Enemy avoids damage in some way), the splash damage will if there are Enemies standing next to the Target. This satisfies the condition on the Butcher's Blade, above. So subsequent Combat Hits (but again, not splash) will be doing +1 Damage.

- Jee

 
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Joe Price
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Jee, do you also play that the splash damage doesn't generate hit XP? That seems to be the logical extension of your argument. (I would still expect damage XP however.)
 
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Jee Fu
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Good question. I asked FFP about how to handle "Hits that aren't Hits" and they basically said that the "instant wound" mechanics don't technically imply Hits. However for the purposes of XP generation, they totally do.

This is very good because RAW, Dynamite Generates 0 XP. The rules state that only "Hits that do Damage yield XP."

So, things that modify Hits and triggers off of Hits directly don't come into play with theses kinds of wound generating mechanics. But you can consider them Hits for XP purposes. In this case, yes, the Void Hammer would generate Hit-XP and Wound-XP. I'm largely OK with that. It's very expensive (especially for a Bandido, who has to cart around all that Dark Stone while saving up), and it's Melee.

- Jee

EDIT: The above example of Dynamite was a poor example, as I believe that it does generate actual Hits (see my next post for the correction, below). But the point stands.
 
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Joe Price
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It would seem that for your version, changing the XP generation to "character causes damage" and "per damage" for large monsters would tie well with your version instead of "character causes hit that causes damage" and "per damage".

It certainly is fewer words. It does change some implications.

(*sigh*) These are the little niggling little things that make rules so annoying - especially when we only get second hand information from the designers as to intent or expectation.

I'll have to see how this plays - I have a pretty good set of internally consistent rules that have been working for us for hundreds of hours at this point, but I'm not going to reject your view out of hand.
 
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Jan Meyberg
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Thank you, Jee, for asking FFG!
If those wounds would have triggered the Butcher's Blade stacking ability, damage would have become just a mere formality in crowded places with this combination!
XP-wise I have played it so far and will play it further as suggested: Those points of damage let you gain XP even if they aren't technically Hits.

Best thanks to all!!
 
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Jee Fu
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rpvt wrote:
I'll have to see how this plays - I have a pretty good set of internally consistent rules that have been working for us for hundreds of hours at this point, but I'm not going to reject your view out of hand.

I feel ya on the rules consistency thing. What convinced me on this particular issue (besides FFP saying it to my face) was that RAW, you get 0 XP for doing damage outside of Hits. That begs to be clarified one way or the other. I prefer the implied-Hit version because I feel that it matches the intended balance of how Enemies are stat'ed for XP. The game expects that when you wound certain Enemies, you will get at least Base+5 XP. Removing the Base part for things that do straight Wounds instead of Damage seems like thwarting the intended XP gain, and therefore undervaluing the contribution. This might unbalance (nerf) Classes/Items/Abilities that depend on these kinds of mechanics to be relevant, blah blah blah.

It's possible that game intends the opposite (that straight Wounds are only supposed to give you a tiny amount of XP), but when in doubt I go with the affirmation rather than the implication. The affirmation says Base+5/Wound.

One exception: I actually misspoke regarding Dynamite, above. There are a number of places in the Rules that heavily imply that Dynamite actually does real genuine "Hits" to all of its affected targets:

Exhibit A) It says "Roll To Hit" in the rules regarding how Dynamite works.

Exhibit B) The Bandido Upgrade Dark Stone Dynamite says "Once per Turn, use 1 Dark Stone when Throwing a Dynamite Token to add +2 Damage to each model Hit." <---- This is a smoking gun (pun intended). Dynamite strikes can - apparently - benefit from +Damage, and each model affected is "Hit" (capital H).

This means that technically, Dynamite does Hits that ignore Defense (Enemy abilities be damned) rather than straight wounds. It also means that it can benefit from other sources of +Damage (Righteous Fury + Dynamite = awesome). This is good because Dynamite doesn't scale quite as well as the rest of the stuff that kills other stuff, and its expensive to keep using.

- Jee
 
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