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Fief: France 1429» Forums » General

Subject: How to make sieges? rss

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Wojtek Kamusella
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From current version of English rulebook (v110) I still can’t figure out how exactly siege is going to happen…

Right now, battles can have only 3 outcomes:
a) Total annihilation of one side – rare: total annihilation of both sides.
b) Surrender of one side
c) Truce

There is no retreat (even to stronghold), so how to establish siege?
 
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I AM Not A Number
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At the end of his combat phase the player outside the castle declares a siege.
Note that there is no need for a batle to take place.
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Wojtek Kamusella
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iamnan wrote:
Note that there is no need for a batle to take place.

There is no need, if both players don't want to fight during COMBAT PHASE, but what to do if attacker (who have more troops) want to fight and defender not?
In this case battle must be resolved and it last till defender will be wiped out, so there is no need for siege.
 
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N Jones
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From the English Rulebook:

Quote:
Note: A Player attacking an opponent that is in the safety of
a Stronghold or a Fortified City can alone decide to end the
Battle. The defending opponent can force the continuation of
the Battle by giving up the safety of his Stronghold or Fortified
City and fighting in the open.


So the defender can force the battle, BUT loses the benefit of the building.

Edit: Re-read your issue about the attacker.

The attacker can end the attack after any given battle rolls (0,1,2 etc). The battle does not have to end with one side being eliminated. Thematically, this is the attacker moving a little out of reach of the building.
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Wojtek Kamusella
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Your example do not cover situation where attacker with big army meets defender with small army. F.e. Lord with 2 knights attack 1 footman.

There is no interest for a defender to force the battle, and he can't hide into stronghold till battle ends. During this battle he will be eliminated...

In other words. Can defender refuse battle if attacker don't want to?


 
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Andrea Bampi
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Wallensteinwojtek wrote:

In other words. Can defender refuse battle if attacker don't want to?


No.
 
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Wojtek Kamusella
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So what is purpose of having stronghold if I can't hide inside? Beside buying title.

And also - sieges can only happen, if one of ally betray the other while both are standing in the same village which is stronghold of one or another. In all other cases there is simple battle that can finish in ways I described in the first post.

Very stupid idea...
 
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Nick Clinite
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What's going on here?

If you're a defender inside a Stronghold, you receive the defensive bonus if an attacker declares a combat against you. If you declare a combat against them, then you give up that bonus (you are leaving the Stronghold to attack them). If the combat phase passes without either side getting wiped out (either because nobody declared a combat, or because of Truce) then the attacker can declare a siege.

Am I missing where the confusion is?
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Wojtek Kamusella
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You can't be defender inside stronghold/city, because you need to fight battle at the first place. This battle can finish in only three possible ways:
a) Total annihilation of one side – rare: total annihilation of both sides.
b) Surrender of one side
c) Truce

None of above leeds to situation where both opponents will have forces in the same village (ok, you can lie during truce and then establish siege), so there will be no siege. Exception to this is ally case (desribed above).


There is nothing in the rulebook that can allow defender to hide from battle during battle phase.
 
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Martin Gallo
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Maybe it is a terminology confusion?

If the defender fights it is a battle and if the defender does not fight it is a siege.

Does that help you?
 
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Nick Clinite
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I ... don't know what you're talking about.

If you're in control of the village with the Stronghold, then you're in the Stronghold. Combat is only resolved if someone in the village declares a combat. If you declare the combat, then you leave the Stronghold and therefore don't get its bonus. If an opposing Player declares the combat, then you get the bonus (they bring the battle to the Stronghold).

All combats take place in a village.
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Wojtek Kamusella
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islan wrote:
If you're in control of the village with the Stronghold, then you're in the Stronghold.


Can you quote that from rulebook?

 
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Nick Clinite
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Quote:
4.2
A Stronghold counter is placed on a Village
controlled by the Player.


Quote:
5.1
If allied or opposing Player Troops occupy the same Village,
the first to arrive controls it. Players that arrive afterwards place
their counters on the road leading into the Village, indicating
they do not control it.
[...]
The presence of a Stronghold or Fortified City on a Village does
not change control rules. Control of a Stronghold or Fortified
City is linked with the control of the Village.
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Andrea Bampi
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Wallensteinwojtek wrote:

There is nothing in the rulebook that can allow defender to hide from battle during battle phase.


You really don't seem to get the meaning of the siege rules. The siege is something the attacker (sometimes) wants to initiate, in order to lower the dice bonus (=dice malus for the attacker) ALL DEFENDERS have when defending a stronghold/city.
Please explain WHY any defender would/should "hide from battle" during battle phase... if he "accepts" the attack (...) he gets the entire dice bonus; if he doesn't (he can't, but let's assume he can) he'll lose the bonus in the next turn. I suppose your intention may be to "gain time" in order to let reinforcements come to the stronghold (in the next turn): well, you can't. The thematic meaning of the rules is: if someone attacks you stronghold without preparing a proper siege, you surely can't "deny" him this right. You barricade yourself in the stronghold and you fight USING THE STRONGHOLD BONUS (which is pretty powerful). Or you surrender, if you prefer to do so. You usually don't need to lay a siege to a poorly defended castle, it makes sense... anyway in the scenario you described above, 2 Knights + 1 Lord vs 1 Troop in a Stronghold, the attacker will surely prevail even without a siege, but he has a 33% probability of losing a Knight in the first combat round...
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Wojtek Kamusella
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islan wrote:
Quote:
4.2
A Stronghold counter is placed on a Village
controlled by the Player.


Quote:
5.1
If allied or opposing Player Troops occupy the same Village,
the first to arrive controls it. Players that arrive afterwards place
their counters on the road leading into the Village, indicating
they do not control it.
[...]
The presence of a Stronghold or Fortified City on a Village does
not change control rules. Control of a Stronghold or Fortified
City is linked with the control of the Village.


Ther is nothing in above quotes that leads you to sentence that: If you're in control of the village with the Stronghold, then you're in the Stronghold. Those quotations are about controling villages.

You sentence is only assumption that is not connected to rulebook. I believe this is good assumption but still only assumption.

 
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Nick Clinite
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Wallensteinwojtek wrote:


Ther is nothing in above quotes that leads you to sentence that: If you're in control of the village with the Stronghold, then you're in the Stronghold. Those quotations are about controling villages.

You sentence is only assumption that is not connected to rulebook. I believe this is good assumption but still only assumption.





I admit the rulebook is terrible when it comes to using undefined terms like "in", but there's little assumption necessary. But suffice to say: when you are in control of a village, you are placed on top of it. When you have a Stronghold/Fortified Village, it is placed on top of the Village. If you are in control of a Village with a Stronghold/Fortified Village, you are placed on top of the Stronghold/Fortified Village, and are "in" the Stronghold/Fortified Village. The only time you are not "in" it is when you declare combat.

Quote:
6.2.1
Attacker Penalties do not apply when the army occupying a
Stronghold or Fortified City attacks out at their besieging
opponent.
Example: David occupies a Stronghold and is attacked by
Grady who has a 15 SP army. Grady’s 15 SPs = 3 Battle Dice.
But he is attacking a Stronghold, which imposes a 1 Battle Die
Penalty. Grady attackes with only 2 Battle Dice.


You control the Stronhold = you occupy the Stronghold = you are in the Stronghold.
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Wojtek Kamusella
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That is my assumption also, and we play like that, but one of my new players pointed that there is nothing about that in the rulebook.

I hope corrected version of rulebook appear someday.
 
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Nick Clinite
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That's not the only thing missing in the rulebook; there are tons of little not-explicitly-defined tidbits that you wont even notice in a first read-through. Always try to go with the implicit intent of the rules, and don't be afraid to make your own rulings at your own table; everyone seems to play a version of the game that is slightly different, even the developers. I don't think they'll ever update the rules.
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Steven Townshend
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- If you're in a stronghold and someone attacks you, you both roll combat dice during the battle. But the person attacking you loses dice because you're inside the stronghold and they're attacking from outside it.

- Alternatively your opponent might not attack and instead put down a siege engine, which will take away some (or all) of your defense on the following round. Or that person might put down a siege engine after you've fought a round or two of battle.

- While your opponent is camped outside your fortifications, you could (on your turn) decide to attack. If you initiate the attack, you lose the defense bonus from your fortifications because you're going out into the field.
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Angelus Seniores
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look at the attacker penalties when calculating combat page 13;
-1 die when defender is in a stronghold
-2 dice when defender is in a fortified city

in the movement rules page 11;
-the first player to arrive in a village controls it
-opposing players moving in do not control it, their troops are placed on the road to the village.

if you control a village then you are IN the stronghold/fortified city, thats the default position.

nothing in the rules indicate that the controlling player's troops would remain/be considered outside the stronghold/fortified city at any time, except when they choose to declare a battle against an opposing player outside (but this would only be for the time needed for the battle, as soon as its over they are again considered inside it).

so to resume;
-the stronghold/fortified city attacker penalties always apply by default
-if the attacker is present after a battle with an opponent-occupied stronghold/city, he may declare siege by place a siege engine counter showing 1 die, next turn he may flip it to the 2 dice side. these cancel the attacker penalties, the siege engine counter marks the village as Besieged.
-if the attacker doesnt declare a battle against the defender, the defender may declare a battle himself but thereby leaves the stronghold/fortified city so the attacker penalty is not applicable for that battle.

 
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