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Trickerion: Legends of Illusion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Powers Question rss

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Dylan Bradshaw
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So the other night I was playing with magician Powers and a question came up. I had two Powers. One read, when you learn a trick that is 16/36 you may spend an extra action point to reduce the cost if you are below that fame by 4/8 (I think). The other read, when you learn a trick you may spend a an extra action point to receive it's yields. So, when I went to learn the trick the question came up, how should these be ordered? They both have the keywords that they occur "when you learn a trick" but could I take the yields from learning the trick with my one power and then spend those yields with to "buy" the trick discounted by the other power? Just curious if this has been discussed or is unclear to anyone else on these extensive forums. Thanks.
 
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Sebastien Maire
France
St Jean de Moirans
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For me it is pretty clear that what you propose as an example is not possible.

In order to receive the yeld of the trick, you have to learn it. If you can't learn it because you don't have the fame threesold, then you don't receive the yeld. --> You receive the yeld after it has been learnt.

Thus no conflict with the other Power.
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Adrian Schmidt
Sweden
Malmö
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I agree.

While they are technically said to be triggered at the same time, I think the thematic ordering is quite obvious.

You don't even have to involve the power that gives you the rebate. Just think of the following scenario:

You have 0 coins.
You have a fame of 14.
You want to learn a trick with fame threshold 16.
The trick has a coin yield of 3.

This means you would need to pay 2 coins to learn that trick. Once you learn the trick, you get 3 coins, because of your power. But you can't learn the trick because you can't pay for it, because you have 0 coins!
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Dylan Bradshaw
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Thanks for confirming my wife's argument guys!shakeshake
 
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Michael D
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Are we saying that the following is incorrect?

Currently 14 fame and no coins. The trick I want is level 16.

"I take my magician downtown to the +2 slot. Use the learn trick action for 3 ap. I use the power to reduce the cost by up to 4 so there is no penalty for being short on fame. I then use my other power to take the yield for the learned trick. I'm now out of action points."

This makes sense to me. What am I missing?
 
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David Combs
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Spring Lake Park
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electricalstorm wrote:
Are we saying that the following is incorrect?

Currently 14 fame and no coins. The trick I want is level 16.

"I take my magician downtown to the +2 slot. Use the learn trick action for 3 ap. I use the power to reduce the cost by up to 4 so there is no penalty for being short on fame. I then use my other power to take the yield for the learned trick. I'm now out of action points."

This makes sense to me. What am I missing?


That sounds correct to me.

I think the others are saying that if you are short on fame for the trick you want to learn, you can't use the power to get the yield of that trick and then use the money from that yield to pay for being short on fame.
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Michael D
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dhc3po wrote:
electricalstorm wrote:
Are we saying that the following is incorrect?

Currently 14 fame and no coins. The trick I want is level 16.

"I take my magician downtown to the +2 slot. Use the learn trick action for 3 ap. I use the power to reduce the cost by up to 4 so there is no penalty for being short on fame. I then use my other power to take the yield for the leuarned trick. I'm now out of action points."

This makes sense to me. What am I missing?


That sounds correct to me.

I think the others are saying that if you are short on fame for the trick you want to learn, you can't use the power to get the yield of that trick and then use the money from that yield to pay for being short on fame.


Oh okay. I agree with that too. Of course you cannot use the payout until you learned the trick first.
 
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Paul Catley
United Kingdom
Hull
East Yorkshire
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Although not expressly stated, I think he's saying that he is falling short by more than 4 (or 8) fame. If he wants to learn the trick, he needs the yield from the learned trick to be able to afford it, in addition to the power that discounts 4 ( or 8) from the cost for falling short, e.g. He maybe has 11 fame and no coins. Can't be done, at least not in the same turn with the same worker. If he had 14 fame, he could use the discount power and wouldn't need the yield (though he could then get it).
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Dylan Bradshaw
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Yes that is what I meant

I'm still not certain that this solution is the right interpretation. Say I spent 3 APs to learn the trick, 1 AP to receive the yields than 1 last to lower the fame and pay the difference with the yields. Thematically, I guess I can see why that wouldn't fit. But the powers both trigger simultaneously "when the trick is learned." So I think the player should be able to choose the order in that case.

I wonder if there are other power combinations that trigger simultaneously and could have similar "issues."
 
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Michael D
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dylanbradshaw wrote:
Yes that is what I meant

I'm still not certain that this solution is the right interpretation. Say I spent 3 APs to learn the trick, 1 AP to receive the yields than 1 last to lower the fame and pay the difference with the yields. Thematically, I guess I can see why that wouldn't fit. But the powers both trigger simultaneously "when the trick is learned." So I think the player should be able to choose the order in that case.

I wonder if there are other power combinations that trigger simultaneously and could have similar "issues."


Gotta go with the wife on this one. In order to learn the trick you need to meet the fame requirement or pay the difference in coins. Once that happens you can then take the yield payout. Since you can't complete the learn trick action you don't trigger the power. Sorry. Remember happy wife happy life.
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Désirée Greverud
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Stockholm
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dylanbradshaw wrote:
Yes that is what I meant

I'm still not certain that this solution is the right interpretation. Say I spent 3 APs to learn the trick, 1 AP to receive the yields than 1 last to lower the fame and pay the difference with the yields. Thematically, I guess I can see why that wouldn't fit. But the powers both trigger simultaneously "when the trick is learned." So I think the player should be able to choose the order in that case.

I wonder if there are other power combinations that trigger simultaneously and could have similar "issues."

but they don't trigger simultaneously. "When you learn" has a prerequisite - that you pay the cost of learning it. This must be done in order to learn the trick. Cost paid->trick learned->reward earned. One of the powers reduces the cost, but the trick still isn't learned yet until that cost is paid so the trick reward can't be applied to learning it. It's like paying for a lottery ticket with the winnings from that ticket.

Don't get hung up on Dominion-style "keywords" in games that don't have them, especially when English isn't the designers first language (like this game).
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Dylan Bradshaw
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Alright that clarifies some things. Thanks again. I am a dominion player u guessed it.
 
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