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Subject: Players count rss

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Luca Luca
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I'm always looking for new race games and FR seems to be really interesting and original.
I'm just wondering if max number of players (4) is a limit due to design intrinsic reasons or if maybe it would be possible to consider to increase it (maybe up to 6).
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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The game started as 2-5. However, after having demoed it the first 50+ times, I found myself sitting out on games if we were 5 total. Because the game is better with 3-4 than 5, and I was happy to watch from the sideline.

Why isn't it as good with 5..? The answer is = congestion. The roads get too full with 10 riders, and break aways simply became too hard to achieve. Plus the more riders there are, the more randomness happens, and thus the less planning matters.

I do have ideas for fixing this, but not ideas that could fit in a box at the time, for the price point. And that is the final issue. We wanted a game that could be accessible to families. Both regarding the rules and regarding the price. There are some pretty steep cut off points, and at least in Denmark anything over €39.95 is no longer really mass market (unless it is a big brand name). Adding the 5th player would definitely have pushed the price too high for that.

We hope the game becomes a success as is, and thus that we get the possibility to make an expansion where 5-6 players work, without the designer wanting to sit out

Regards
Asger
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Luca Luca
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Thank you Aeger; I perfectly understand the point, and appreciate a lot your availability.
I’m presently playing race games such as Leader 1: Hell of the North, Race! Formula 90, Thunder Alley.
I don’t know exactly why, but In my distorted mind a race game needs a players crowd, and obviously this is often in contrast with playability.
For sure a game that obtain such credible simulation level with a such simple set of rules can be defined only elegant, and this is the case of Flame Rouge.
I think I will have to add it to my collection (hoping in a future expansion moving just a little from family to simulation field whistle).

Luca
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Asger Harding Granerud
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Thanks so much for the praise. I hope you'll love it

The discussion on what a simulation is, is a big, big discussion! Personally I rate the feel and flow of the game over the details if you look with a microscope. If you get this feel and flow close enough to the real thing, then you create an illusion. And if players allow themselves to be drawn to that illusion then their imagination will fill out the details much better than any amount of rules can ever achieve.

Well... at least that is MY design philosophy on simulations. I've designed both a soccer and a NFL game prior to Flamme Rouge, and those same tenets hold true there (for me!).

Happy racing
Asger Granerud

PS https://www.facebook.com/MentalFootball/?fref=ts
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Richard Dewsbery
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AsgerSG wrote:
Thanks so much for the praise. I hope you'll love it

The discussion on what a simulation is, is a big, big discussion! Personally I rate the feel and flow of the game over the details if you look with a microscope. If you get this feel and flow close enough to the real thing, then you create an illusion. And if players allow themselves to be drawn to that illusion then their imagination will fill out the details much better than any amount of rules can ever achieve.


Could not agree more.

Although I do remember playing one game about fifteen years ago that was a near-perfect simulation of Formula 1 in 90 minutes - it was all about your qualifying lap, and then the race was a pretty turgid affair where you could get it wrong in your pit stop strategy but normally saw drivers finishing roughly where they had qualified. No fun at all. But that's quite realistic too.

I'd thought about a fifth player expansion, and although I think it might be possible with some different board sections (particularly stretches of parcours that are wide or narrower than two spaces), simply adding more riders would not work at all.

One of the huge pluses with Flamme Rouge is that the planning part of each turn is both pretty fast and done simultaneously. That would make it an ideal candidate for more players. But I just can't see the cycling atmosphere or tactics being preserved simply by adding more riders.
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Asger Harding Granerud
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I do have a 5-6 player expansion in mind, that I'm pretty sure would work. However, as they aren't fully formed and have never been tested, I'll keep them to myself for a little longer

Happy racing
Asger Granerud
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Benji
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5 players would be an extremely welcome addition. I'm not sure it needs to go to 6.

However, 8 players in four teams might be fun if everyone plays one rider
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Will Jones
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I would think for a 5-6 player game all you would need is a 3 lane rd and the move to the right rule still applies. I could see this being an expansion... What are your thoughts Asger?

Oh and you could play a 4 player game with 3 lanes and everyone has 3 team members instead of 2. I wonder if that would work?
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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My thoughts, not tested and not necessarily true:

Congestion is a double problem. It isn't simply widening the road, though doing so at the start of a stage would be a big help. The other end of the problem is randomization! Riding with 2-3 other players makes it feasible to guess what they are doing. Riding with 5 doesn't.

My solution, still not tested, is to a) widen the road on the 1st stretch and b) start 2-3 riders in a breakaway.

Adding a 3rd rider would significantly prolong the game, and possibly create AP. Not impossible but does come with challenges. Plus it may mean that too much of the game is in your control.

Asger
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Richard Dewsbery
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What about a third rider - a climber (no idea what the deck would look like - perhaps cards that avoid collecting exhaustion in the mountains?). But player rest have to choose which two of their three riders to use in a race?

Cost-prohibitive to produce as an expansion, I suspect.
 
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Asger Harding Granerud
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The third rider, and picking 2/3 has been tested, and will probably be the solution for different rider types

Asher
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Peter D
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AsgerSG wrote:
Thanks so much for the praise. I hope you'll love it

The discussion on what a simulation is, is a big, big discussion! Personally I rate the feel and flow of the game over the details if you look with a microscope. If you get this feel and flow close enough to the real thing, then you create an illusion. And if players allow themselves to be drawn to that illusion then their imagination will fill out the details much better than any amount of rules can ever achieve.

Well... at least that is MY design philosophy on simulations. I've designed both a soccer and a NFL game prior to Flamme Rouge, and those same tenets hold true there (for me!).

Happy racing
Asger Granerud

PS https://www.facebook.com/MentalFootball/?fref=ts



To many gamers (most I would guess?) simulation is not relevant at all, we just want good competitive game play. Theme is obviously important, but mechanics and gameplay should win over simulation if you are appealing to a broader gamers market.
 
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Richard Dewsbery
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But if you can nail the feel and flow of the subject matter, it helps with immersion and player engagement no end. I'm really loving Flamme Rouge, both as a fast, flowing race game but also as a representation of a bike race.
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Luca Luca
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Asger,
I was curious about rules of your soccer and nfl games but I was not able to find rulebooks. Are available somewhere?
 
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