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Subject: Velikiye Luki rss

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Robert Lesco
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I find this an interesting topic but White Death is towards the top end of my price range and the Command Japan version is nearly impossible to find. Are there other games on the topic I am over-looking? Maybe scenarios in larger games?

I would be grateful for any and all replies.

Incidentally, I can't leave it here without mentioning that I tried to post this where I thought I would get some responses and it was GROGnads who directed me here so it's a tip of the hat in your direction.
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Carl Paradis
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rlesco wrote:
I find this an interesting topic but White Death is towards the top end of my price range and the Command Japan version is nearly impossible to find.


Excellent, Excellent Game, albeit way too long to play.

I have an extra copy of the Command Japan version. Drop me a BGG Mail and I'll give it to you for free.

BTW I plan to make a game on this very topic in the upcoming years.

The title below is nice, too:

Velikye Luki

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This is one of the most forgotten battles of the Eastern Front and AFAIK besides an article on Wikipedia, a mentioning in Carells "Scorched Earth" there is no book dealing solely with that battle.

Sad Sidenote: After Velikije Luki was recaptured by the soviets, the prisoners were forced to march through Moscow and one POV of every rank was executioned for the stubborn defense of that small town!

Unfortunately that battle is more or less forgotten compared to Stalingrad, Demjansk or Cholm.

Although I intended to write an article about that battle for Flames of War already years ago, there is basically no! prime material available (at least I was not able to find that), except for that available in the archives (Bundesarchiv at Koblenz for example). And that is pretty time and financial consuming to get access to.

Darn I wish I had written that post to get a free copy of that game .

I wish you the best Carl for that game, it will be a drag considering the OOB, strengths of units etc.
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Carl Fung
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rlesco wrote:
I find this an interesting topic but White Death is towards the top end of my price range and the Command Japan version is nearly impossible to find. Are there other games on the topic I am over-looking? Maybe scenarios in larger games?

I would be grateful for any and all replies.

Incidentally, I can't leave it here without mentioning that I tried to post this where I thought I would get some responses and it was GROGnads who directed me here so it's a tip of the hat in your direction.


Jim Daniels
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is designing a Velikiye Luki game using the Battalion Combat Series rules. I've been helping Jim with the OOB.

If I'm able to put words into his mouth, I believe White Death was a big inspiration. The game is still being designed so it may be some time before its in production.
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Rory McAllister
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I had read somewhere that this battle was one of the first land battles that had used radar for artillery spotting but I may be remembering this incorrectly.

Yes, White Death is a fantastic depiction of the battle and a game system that has been largely forgotten. I think Suez '73 was the only other game that used that system and that is unfortunate since I can think of a bunch of other battles that the system could've worked with.
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Robert Lesco
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Thank you, Carl! I am looking forward to it, and I am looking forward just as much to your take on the battle, as well as Jim Daniels'.

Thank you everyone for your replies.
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Carl Paradis
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rlesco wrote:
Thank you, Carl! I am looking forward to it, and I am looking forward just as much to your take on the battle, as well as Jim Daniels'.


My pleasure. the game with magazine will be on it's way to you this week. meeple
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Carl Paradis
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Duempel51 wrote:
I wish you the best Carl for that game, it will be a drag considering the OOB, strengths of units etc.


Thanks!

I think I do have the OOB for that one pretty nailed down. My goal is to do a series of quadri-games on the Russian Front WW2.

The first will be four small games about battles taking place on the Northern Front (Velikie Luki, Leningrad, Finland, Demiansk), then four on the Central Front for the second game (Smolensk, Moscow, Kursk Minsk), then four on the South front for the third game (Kharkov, Kiev, Novorossiysk, Korsun). meeple
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Robert Wesley
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Just wanted to 'interject' here upon HOW there is no way to locate "Subdomains Forums" within BGG sort. "Feel the Love" had ONE easily seen and displayed, and just where exactly would you FIND these others then?
 
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Pedro M wrote:
I had read somewhere that this battle was one of the first land battles that had used radar for artillery spotting but I may be remembering this incorrectly.

Yes, White Death is a fantastic depiction of the battle and a game system that has been largely forgotten. I think Suez '73 was the only other game that used that system and that is unfortunate since I can think of a bunch of other battles that the system could've worked with.


From recollection I remember, that the artillery was positioned outside the cauldron and the artillery spotters were inside. I don´t remember that radar like the british RAF had was used, but there were so-called "Schallmesstrupps" (sound wave measuring squads) in german artillery units to nail down the positions of enemy artillery positions. So probably one of these units was in the pocket?
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licinius wrote:
Duempel51 wrote:
I wish you the best Carl for that game, it will be a drag considering the OOB, strengths of units etc.


Thanks!

I think I do have the OOB for that one pretty nailed down. My goal is to do a series of quadri-games on the Russian Front WW2.

The first will be four small games about battles taking place on the Northern Front (Velikie Luki, Leningrad, Finland, Demiansk), then four on the Central Front for the second game (Smolensk, Moscow, Kursk Minsk), then four on the South front for the third game (Kharkov, Kiev, Novorossiysk, Korsun). meeple


Why not including Tarnopol? Another of those seldom gamed battles that gets also easily forgotten. For that there is an excellent book having an OOB down to the last man: Gert Fricke "Fester Platz Tarnopol 1944", published by Rombach, Freiburg im Breisgau 1986

For me it would be more interesting to have a quad such "forgotten" battles instead of the walked out paths of Moscow, Kursk etc.
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Duempel51 wrote:
Why not including Tarnopol? Another of those seldom gamed battles that gets also easily forgotten. For that there is an excellent book having an OOB down to the last man: Gert Fricke "Fester Platz Tarnopol 1944", published by Rombach, Freiburg im Breisgau 1986

For me it would be more interesting to have a quad such "forgotten" battles instead of the walked out paths of Moscow, Kursk etc.


Sur, why not, excellent suggestion! The lists I made is VERY tentative, and I would indeed prefer putting in smaller battles, or ones that are Little known. Like Narva in 44.

Thanks for the excellent suggestion. meeple
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licinius wrote:
Duempel51 wrote:
Why not including Tarnopol? Another of those seldom gamed battles that gets also easily forgotten. For that there is an excellent book having an OOB down to the last man: Gert Fricke "Fester Platz Tarnopol 1944", published by Rombach, Freiburg im Breisgau 1986

For me it would be more interesting to have a quad such "forgotten" battles instead of the walked out paths of Moscow, Kursk etc.


Sur, why not, excellent suggestion! The lists I made is VERY tentative, and I would indeed prefer putting in smaller battles, or ones that are Little known. Like Narva in 44.

Thanks for the excellent suggestion. meeple


For Tarnopal I have the book at hand, so if interested I can take that book apart and provide the information for that. Good things that this book is totally based on prime sources, so no mistakes from copying from other books.
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Carl Paradis
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Duempel51 wrote:
licinius wrote:
Duempel51 wrote:
Why not including Tarnopol? Another of those seldom gamed battles that gets also easily forgotten. For that there is an excellent book having an OOB down to the last man: Gert Fricke "Fester Platz Tarnopol 1944", published by Rombach, Freiburg im Breisgau 1986

For me it would be more interesting to have a quad such "forgotten" battles instead of the walked out paths of Moscow, Kursk etc.


Sur, why not, excellent suggestion! The lists I made is VERY tentative, and I would indeed prefer putting in smaller battles, or ones that are Little known. Like Narva in 44.

Thanks for the excellent suggestion. meeple


For Tarnopal I have the book at hand, so if interested I can take that book apart and provide the information for that. Good things that this book is totally based on prime sources, so no mistakes from copying from other books.


Wow seems impressive. It's priobably written in German right? Send me a geek Mail and I'll forward you my coordinates. meeple
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Duempel51 wrote:


Unfortunately that battle is more or less forgotten compared to Stalingrad, Demjansk or Cholm.




I had never heard of Cholm til the ASL module came out. Velikije Luki was the subject of one of the original Squad Leader scenarios - the 4th one I think .
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Charles Finch
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Carl you should monitor the Wargammers Paying it Forward list since you have games to spare ;-)
 
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Carl Paradis
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cfinchjr2 wrote:
Carl you should monitor the Wargammers Paying it Forward list since you have games to spare ;-)


Nah, I have absolutely no time for that right now. I have given 450+ games over the last few years, but I don't give as much as before now for lack of time. Heck I have a pile of a dozen wargames I have to get rid of right now, but I haven't done anything in that regard since this summer: as I have said, not enough time. And I'm a bit tired of mailing games, after doing it hundreds of times... Gasp. Nowadays I try to give locally if possible, ubnless I get or see a special request. zombie
 
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Marty S wrote:
Duempel51 wrote:


Unfortunately that battle is more or less forgotten compared to Stalingrad, Demjansk or Cholm.




I had never heard of Cholm til the ASL module came out. Velikije Luki was the subject of one of the original Squad Leader scenarios - the 4th one I think .


I think ATO Magazine made also Circle of Fire, about the siege of Cholm.
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Yes, that is correct - came out a year or two after the Cholm ASL module.
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Jim Daniels
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yes, White death was the inspiration for my BCS treatment of this battle...White Death was a great game and I had a blast playing...unfortunately, I believe the research, while accurate for the time, has been superseded by the release of soviet documents in the 90's.
I remember being struck at the time that White Death had the offensive beginning much earlier than the larger Mars/Uranus offensives. My treatment will change that based on more current research.

I think it will be a good contribution to the series and it is closer to hand-off than Carl suspects...but this one has been my baby for a while...so the tendency to tinker is strong...
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Paul Amala
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I remember playing the computer game of this battle many years ago: http://thestrategygamer.com/2016/01/25/nostalgia-v-for-victo...
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Carl Paradis
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paulamala wrote:
I remember playing the computer game of this battle many years ago: http://thestrategygamer.com/2016/01/25/nostalgia-v-for-victo...


I still have it, and it works.

Very nice game.
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Bob Zurunkel
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licinius wrote:
Duempel51 wrote:
licinius wrote:
Duempel51 wrote:
Why not including Tarnopol? Another of those seldom gamed battles that gets also easily forgotten. For that there is an excellent book having an OOB down to the last man: Gert Fricke "Fester Platz Tarnopol 1944", published by Rombach, Freiburg im Breisgau 1986

For me it would be more interesting to have a quad such "forgotten" battles instead of the walked out paths of Moscow, Kursk etc.


Sur, why not, excellent suggestion! The lists I made is VERY tentative, and I would indeed prefer putting in smaller battles, or ones that are Little known. Like Narva in 44.

Thanks for the excellent suggestion. meeple


For Tarnopal I have the book at hand, so if interested I can take that book apart and provide the information for that. Good things that this book is totally based on prime sources, so no mistakes from copying from other books.


Wow seems impressive. It's priobably written in German right? Send me a geek Mail and I'll forward you my coordinates. meeple


Sounds like a perfect subject for a Perry Moore game: "Fester Platz - Stalingrad at Tarnopol!"
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Jim Daniels
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Duempel51 wrote:
Pedro M wrote:
I had read somewhere that this battle was one of the first land battles that had used radar for artillery spotting but I may be remembering this incorrectly.


From recollection I remember, that the artillery was positioned outside the cauldron and the artillery spotters were inside. I don´t remember that radar like the british RAF had was used, but there were so-called "Schallmesstrupps" (sound wave measuring squads) in german artillery units to nail down the positions of enemy artillery positions. So probably one of these units was in the pocket?


There was no artillery spotting radar, there was, however, the German 17th observation battalion which was equipped with listening devices "Schallmesstrupps" sounds like what I remember, it was part of the surrounded troops in Velikiye Luki.
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