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Subject: An open letter to UDE... rss

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Jacob Stick
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To whomever, from UDE, still frequents the BGG forums,

Greetings, it has been a while since I've seen you around. I remember the early days when we had UDE employees who were quite active. I haven't noticed it as much, but that very well be my own shortfall for not looking for it.

One of the things I appreciated about the early days is that when we had something to say about the game we felt listened to. Dark City is arguable the best expansion that we have received to date. While the other expansion have added to the game are loved as well, they never seemed to have that same punch of adding to the game like Dark City.

Now we come to the next expansion that is coming and it is Marvel Noir. There are plenty that are of the consensus that it will be good, which I have enjoyed most products produced, but there is one thing I have been been hearing from a good amount of my fellow BGGers. Now I of course don't speak for all and maybe I actually speak for none, but one of the issues we have been having is getting different variations of the same heroes. Every expansion has had a variation on a hero with the exception off a few. At first it has been fine and interesting, but it has slowly begun to wear on me and possibly others.

It is getting harder to get excited for a new expansion when it is just going to be what feels like the same, but a little different. We are aching for a very long list of heroes we have yet to see and if it continues in this fashion then at least for me I'll have a hard time making the next purchase.

If I'm the only one feeling this way feel free to ignore this, but if there are others please let us know you are still listening to your fans. Honestly, we want you to succeed. I love Legendary. Never in my life have I played a game more than legendary. So I write this wanting to see this game succeed.

I know Noir is locked in, but after it comes a big box expansion and I really hope we can see a box that has many of the heroes have been looking for or at the very least a peek behind the curtain as to why we have been seeing so many variations of heroes we already have? Any response will be appreciated.

Signed,
An adoring fan
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David A
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So much this.
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Ranger Rob
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You are not alone Jacob.

While I'm excited and honored to fill in the gaps Upperdeck has left with the Master Database. They are still not official cards.

There are significant gaps with the roster of playable heroes. I can understand Upperdeck wanting to stretch out the Marvel Legendary line. Keeping this rolling as long a possible. However they need to throw a bone every once in a while.

What criteria is it that makes me feel that the hero really should have their own card set? Comes down to a few of things for me, and I'm sure this is different for everyone.

1) Have they had their own comic book that has lasted for multiple years? (She-Hulk, Ka-Zar, Nova, Etc...)


2) Has the hero had a significant part in a major motion picture within the last 15 years? (Warmachine, Scarlet Witch, Ant-Man, Quicksilver, etc...)

3) Do they have or had their own TV Series, or play a significant part in an a TV series? (Jessica Jones)

4) Were they significant members of a hero team / teams, or even leaders of one of the main hero teams of the Marvel Universe. Meaning appeared in over 100 issues with that team? (Wasp, Havok, Cannonball)

Anyways...I'll get off the soapbox. (And I didn't even go down the Hero with the wrong team icon path)

Just hoping they get back to the base Earth-616 universe and round that out before they go back to the fringe characters.





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Paul H
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I know that Jeff seems to have moved on to other things. I don't even know if he's still a part of Upper Deck. He was a great spokesperson for the UD games and did a great job keeping the fans informed and excited for the content. I can say definitively that I have not purchased any expansions since his departure and that is partly due to a lack of excitement coming from UD's corner.

In addition, you are not alone in being disheartened by getting #YetAnotherSpider-Man variation when we still haven't seen so many staple heroes.
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Rudy Castaneda
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Spider-Verse expansion! Who's with me!?

-rudy
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Justin H

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I wonder if a "Fan Poll" big box set would be a viable solution. They could have a poll that is open for so long where people can submit and vote on their favorite Heroes and Villains that haven't shown up yet. It would make it difficult to come up with new keywords and such for a set that would probably disjointed, but there are some many keywords just begging to be reused. Top of my list in no particular order:

She-Hulk
Psylocke
Havok
Callisto
Ant-Man (Lang)
Sentry
Quasar
Dazzler

NEED MOAR XMENZ!
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Rome Knows Nothing
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RangerRob24 wrote:
You are not alone Jacob.

While I'm excited and honored to fill in the gaps Upperdeck has left with the Master Database. They are still not official cards.

There are significant gaps with the roster of playable heroes. I can understand Upperdeck wanting to stretch out the Marvel Legendary line. Keeping this rolling as long a possible. However they need to throw a bone every once in a while.

What criteria is it that makes me feel that the hero really should have their own card set? Comes down to a few of things for me, and I'm sure this is different for everyone.

1) Have they had their own comic book that has lasted for multiple years? (She-Hulk, Ka-Zar, Nova, Etc...)


2) Has the hero had a significant part in a major motion picture within the last 15 years? (Warmachine, Scarlet Witch, Ant-Man, Quicksilver, etc...)

3) Do they have or had their own TV Series, or play a significant part in an a TV series? (Jessica Jones)

4) Were they significant members of a hero team / teams, or even leaders of one of the main hero teams of the Marvel Universe. Meaning appeared in over 100 issues with that team? (Wasp, Havok, Cannonball)

Anyways...I'll get off the soapbox. (And I didn't even go down the Hero with the wrong team icon path)

Just hoping they get back to the base Earth-616 universe and round that out before they go back to the fringe characters.



I really agree with this. But one thing....I dont think Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch have been significant roles in movies. Heck...War Machine is on the edge of that one, too, if at all.
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Ranger Rob
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jhochges wrote:
I wonder if a "Fan Poll" big box set would be a viable solution. They could have a poll that is open for so long where people can submit and vote on their favorite Heroes and Villains that haven't shown up yet. It would make it difficult to come up with new keywords and such for a set that would probably disjointed, but there are some many keywords just begging to be reused. Top of my list in no particular order:

She-Hulk
Psylocke
Havok
Callisto
Ant-Man (Lang)
Sentry
Quasar
Dazzler

NEED MOAR XMENZ!


I must have been typing up the Poll when you posted this. Great minds.
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Ranger Rob
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jnowak415 wrote:

I really agree with this. But one thing....I dont think Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch have been significant roles in movies. Heck...War Machine is on the edge of that one, too, if at all.


Ok to me "Significant Role" meant more than 2 minutes of screen time.

Scarlet Witch was arguably the 3rd most important Hero in Civil War.

Warmachine likewise had a big part in Iron Man 2 and 3.

Quicksilver even gets the double dip with Avengers and X-Men.

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Rome Knows Nothing
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RangerRob24 wrote:
jnowak415 wrote:

I really agree with this. But one thing....I dont think Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch have been significant roles in movies. Heck...War Machine is on the edge of that one, too, if at all.


Ok to me "Significant Role" meant more than 2 minutes of screen time.

Scarlet Witch was arguably the 3rd most important Hero in Civil War.

Warmachine likewise had a big part in Iron Man 2 and 3.

Quicksilver even gets the double dip with Avengers and X-Men.




Okay, I gotcha. I wouldnt say she was the 3rd biggest. Cap, Iron Man, Black Panther, Winter Soldier, THEN you get into the other players. But yeah, theyve been in the movies more than just a cameo. Either way...they could have not been in any movie at all and still theyd deserve their own cards.

Yeah, but War Machine wasnt War Machine the whole time. Wasnt it Iron Patriot for at least one of those?
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jhochges wrote:
I wonder if a "Fan Poll" big box set would be a viable solution. They could have a poll that is open for so long where people can submit and vote on their favorite Heroes and Villains that haven't shown up yet. It would make it difficult to come up with new keywords and such for a set that would probably disjointed, but there are some many keywords just begging to be reused. Top of my list in no particular order:

She-Hulk
Psylocke
Havok
Callisto
Ant-Man (Lang)
Sentry
Quasar
Dazzler

NEED MOAR XMENZ!


With Disney / Marvel looking to kill off the X-Men franchise I can't see them wanting to put any more into Legendary. Look what happened to the FF...
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David Brzezinski
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Personally, I have reached the point where I am pretty much done with Marvel Legendary. It happened after the two Secret Wars sets. I bought both sets and found myself thoroughly unexcited about any of the heroes, villains and scenarios in it. And given that I have played only a fraction of the content that has come out before that, I just have no desire to buy any more. I certainly have no desire to buy a set that has nothing but alternate versions of heroes that are already well covered from previous sets.
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Justin H

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Brutilus wrote:
jhochges wrote:
I wonder if a "Fan Poll" big box set would be a viable solution. They could have a poll that is open for so long where people can submit and vote on their favorite Heroes and Villains that haven't shown up yet. It would make it difficult to come up with new keywords and such for a set that would probably disjointed, but there are some many keywords just begging to be reused. Top of my list in no particular order:

She-Hulk
Psylocke
Havok
Callisto
Ant-Man (Lang)
Sentry
Quasar
Dazzler

NEED MOAR XMENZ!


With Disney / Marvel looking to kill off the X-Men franchise I can't see them wanting to put any more into Legendary. Look what happened to the FF...


We will have to see what happens with the Death of X coming up in the comics. The strong rumor is that Marvel will essentially be replacing the X-Men with the Inhumans but I hope this isn't the case. Fox probably won't be letting go of the X-Men franchise anytime soon even if the comics stop. I would imagine that the various X-Men titles are some of their best sellers. #mutantlivesmatter
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Jason Walker
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jhochges wrote:
We will have to see what happens with the Death of X coming up in the comics. The strong rumor is that Marvel will essentially be replacing the X-Men with the Inhumans but I hope this isn't the case.


Last week, they announced a half-dozen X-Men titles launching after Death of X as part of ResurrXion.

"X-Men Blue", "X-Men Gold", "Cable," "Generation X," "Jean Grey," "Weapon X" and "Iceman."
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TravelSized wrote:
jhochges wrote:
We will have to see what happens with the Death of X coming up in the comics. The strong rumor is that Marvel will essentially be replacing the X-Men with the Inhumans but I hope this isn't the case.


Last week, they announced a half-dozen X-Men titles launching after Death of X as part of ResurrXion.

"X-Men Blue", "X-Men Gold", "Cable," "Generation X," "Jean Grey," "Weapon X" and "Iceman."


I'm hoping that the "ResurrXion" coupled with them finally getting rid of Hugh Jackman Wolverine (the only reason the X-Men movies were so popular) hints at a secret Fox/Disney movie deal like the one we got for Spider-Man.
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Mark Shaunessy

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MasterGM wrote:
To whomever, from UDE, still frequents the BGG forums,

Greetings, it has been a while since I've seen you around. I remember the early days when we had UDE employees who were quite active. I haven't noticed it as much, but that very well be my own shortfall for not looking for it.

One of the things I appreciated about the early days is that when we had something to say about the game we felt listened to. Dark City is arguable the best expansion that we have received to date. While the other expansion have added to the game are loved as well, they never seemed to have that same punch of adding to the game like Dark City.

Now we come to the next expansion that is coming and it is Marvel Noir. There are plenty that are of the consensus that it will be good, which I have enjoyed most products produced, but there is one thing I have been been hearing from a good amount of my fellow BGGers. Now I of course don't speak for all and maybe I actually speak for none, but one of the issues we have been having is getting different variations of the same heroes. Every expansion has had a variation on a hero with the exception off a few. At first it has been fine and interesting, but it has slowly begun to wear on me and possibly others.

It is getting harder to get excited for a new expansion when it is just going to be what feels like the same, but a little different. We are aching for a very long list of heroes we have yet to see and if it continues in this fashion then at least for me I'll have a hard time making the next purchase.

If I'm the only one feeling this way feel free to ignore this, but if there are others please let us know you are still listening to your fans. Honestly, we want you to succeed. I love Legendary. Never in my life have I played a game more than legendary. So I write this wanting to see this game succeed.

I know Noir is locked in, but after it comes a big box expansion and I really hope we can see a box that has many of the heroes have been looking for or at the very least a peek behind the curtain as to why we have been seeing so many variations of heroes we already have? Any response will be appreciated.

Signed,
An adoring fan


Joshua,

Thank you for this. While I’ve always been the type to let players discuss and speculate of upcoming sets until I have concrete information, I guess I need to wave my arms in here a bit more.

The hardest part of developing Legendary is that we listen to the players a lot. The problem with that is not everyone plays the same way nor are they looking for the same characters. We have to try and find a balance between all of the players. We are constantly bombarded by requests, but who do we listen to?

Do Spider-verse!
Less Spider-Man!

More X-Men!
More Avengers!

More obscure!
More mainstream!

More co-operative!
More solo!

More Villains!
Less Villains!

Just because your favorite character isn’t playable yet doesn’t mean we don’t care about them or you. Heck, my favorite character isn’t a playable one and I work here. The flip side of that is we won’t do a character just to check a box. It has to work within the theme of the set. That theme is usually either team based or story arc based.

Finally everyone must remember we do not own the characters. We have our limitations, and even requests, from the licensor that we must abide.

Again, thank you for this and keep it coming. We always have our ears open.
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Just curious where the idea for NOIR came from?
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I think the only more/less option that is difficult to meet is the "more mainstream" part. Pretty much all the big names are here. Then again, I don't follow comics, so maybe it's more about missing major story arcs (Phoenix, for example). Among all of the rest though, they can all be accomplished with new characters instead of alternate versions of existing ones. I imagine you could legitimately do a Defenders theme and do well, despite most (if not all) of them having already appeared in various sets. You can accomplish the obscure and mainstream together by theming sets more on specific characters, such as Asgardian, Planet Hulk, even a Wolverine set. As much as I hate that Inhumans are replacing X-Men, I might as well embrace the effective name change and get something actually themed on Inhumans.

You're going to keep making alternate versions of existing characters. Fine, I have to accept that. Just don't make that the bulk of what you do. Please? To me, Legendary is about getting to work with your favorite characters, not your favorite versions of them, though apparently the comics love to jumble positions of characters around.

Also, thank you for responding to us, as always. It's a personal touch I certainly appreciate.
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Jacob Stick
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Mark UD OP wrote:
Joshua,

Thank you for this. While I’ve always been the type to let players discuss and speculate of upcoming sets until I have concrete information, I guess I need to wave my arms in here a bit more.

The hardest part of developing Legendary is that we listen to the players a lot. The problem with that is not everyone plays the same way nor are they looking for the same characters. We have to try and find a balance between all of the players. We are constantly bombarded by requests, but who do we listen to?

Do Spider-verse!
Less Spider-Man!

More X-Men!
More Avengers!

More obscure!
More mainstream!

More co-operative!
More solo!

More Villains!
Less Villains!

Just because your favorite character isn’t playable yet doesn’t mean we don’t care about them or you. Heck, my favorite character isn’t a playable one and I work here. The flip side of that is we won’t do a character just to check a box. It has to work within the theme of the set. That theme is usually either team based or story arc based.

Finally everyone must remember we do not own the characters. We have our limitations, and even requests, from the licensor that we must abide.

Again, thank you for this and keep it coming. We always have our ears open.


This is what I really wanted, just someone to come in here and say that they are listening and that they do care. I can completely understand that there are plenty of fan voices in your ear about what will make the next set awesome or that they are missing their favorite character. I guess I just miss the wonderment and excitement that Dark City brought when it was first released so many new characters and so many well loved ones, plus the Mechanics are some of the the most beloved.

Thank you for taking time out of your schedule to come here and respond to something that has been bugging some of us. As there are with anything there are always those who like things how they are, but I think people are ready to see something that has maybe a Dark City 2 vibe.

Also I always figured that there had to some limitation when it comes the licensing and I completely understand that we can't always get what we want, but just knowing that you guys are still listening to us and taking our thoughts into consideration is enough. So Thank you.
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TravelSized wrote:
Last week, they announced a half-dozen X-Men titles launching after Death of X as part of ResurrXion.

"X-Men Blue", "X-Men Gold", "Cable," "Generation X," "Jean Grey," "Weapon X" and "Iceman."


Off-topic, but I'm really excited about this lineup! Hopefully the creative teams are on-par!

sorry,
-rudy
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Mark, I appreciate the response, but it actually generated a couple more questions for me:

Mark UD OP wrote:
The hardest part of developing Legendary is that we listen to the players a lot.

The lists of characters and themes that I see on here and FB is long, distinguished and NOT new. The lists have been around a very long time. This is going to sound bad, but if players are being listened to, why are these lists being pretty much ignored with no dents being made to them? I can honestly say I haven't seen Noir on a single one of those lists. I mean, Noir? Really?

Mark UD OP wrote:
Just because your favorite character isn’t playable yet doesn’t mean we don’t care about them or you. Heck, my favorite character isn’t a playable one and I work here. The flip side of that is we won’t do a character just to check a box. It has to work within the theme of the set. That theme is usually either team based or story arc based.

As with above, it's not so much about *A* favorite character but entire lists of characters and very few of them, if any, are obscure. There are many obvious themes possible that would incorporate many of those characters, but those obvious themes seem to be elusive to the designers. Being honest though, Dark City is considered by most to be a "must have" expansion and there's no obvious theme there other than "we're going to give you a bunch more stuff to flesh out the game."

Mark UD OP wrote:
Finally everyone must remember we do not own the characters. We have our limitations, and even requests, from the licensor that we must abide.

This part actually carries the most weight and it's been speculated by folks on here and your stating this confirms it. Thank you for that. So just how much input are you guys actually able to give? Is Marvel actually hearing what we the players want or are they coming in all "Kingpin-style" laying down the law as to what the expansion plans are going to be?

I know this post had a confrontational flavor to it and I apologize for that, but I couldn't really think of another way to ask these questions. I LOVE this game and want it to continue to succeed, but it's been getting more and more underwhelming for me lately and I'm hoping that trend recovers (after Noir).
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Mark UD OP wrote:
Heck, my favorite character isn’t a playable one and I work here.


I'm still new to the board, so I apologize for not knowing this answer; but, who is your favorite character?



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How about Not just new characters but revisiting old Teams. Dark City was so good. And For me it was because of the Promise of having X-Force, Cable being my favorite hero. I really hoped there would be more Fleshiness added. Then you also had the Marvel Knights. UD really dropped the ball by not getting back to this theme.

Anyone who has done any Marvel themed games knows that Marvel Demands you push Spider-Man, Wolverine, X-Men and Avengers, *cough* HEROCLIX *cough* which is why we have so many of the same characters with similar abilities.

What I would like to see is a BIG box dedicated to young teams, New Mutants, Hellions, Young Avengers, New Warriors and so forth.

I can take a Twist on Mechanics but they really do need to revisit what they already have in play which is GOLD!
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Thud105 wrote:
The lists of characters and themes that I see on here and FB is long, distinguished and NOT new. The lists have been around a very long time. This is going to sound bad, but if players are being listened to, why are these lists being pretty much ignored with no dents being made to them? I can honestly say I haven't seen Noir on a single one of those lists. I mean, Noir? Really.?


No dents? Luke Cage, Black Panther, Beast, Captain Marvel, Dr. Strange, and even Bob – Agent of Hydra were all asked for and now have playable characters. Being negative to characters like Noir is not only unfair to the expansion, in which the only thing people have seen is a logo, but also to those that are fans of the books. I get that there are many characters that people would like to see, but it will take time. We average only 25 spots a year for playable characters and if we use some of those to sprinkle in something obscure, why not?

Thud105 wrote:
As with above, it's not so much about *A* favorite character but entire lists of characters and very few of them, if any, are obscure. There are many obvious themes possible that would incorporate many of those characters, but those obvious themes seem to be elusive to the designers. Being honest though, Dark City is considered by most to be a "must have" expansion and there's no obvious theme there other than "we're going to give you a bunch more stuff to flesh out the game."


Actually there is a theme. Dark City was originally designed to be the Marvel Knights expansion focusing on Daredevil, Kingpin, and the other characters around Hell’s Kitchen. At the same time we wanted to do something on the X-cutioner’s Song story line from the 90’s. In the end we over delivered on the amount of content we were expecting to do and mashed these two stories together. This is what started the Big box/ Small box schedule.

Thud105 wrote:
This part actually carries the most weight and it's been speculated by folks on here and your stating this confirms it. Thank you for that. So just how much input are you guys actually able to give? Is Marvel actually hearing what we the players want or are they coming in all "Kingpin-style" laying down the law as to what the expansion plans are going to be?


We have an amazing relationship with Marvel, but if there is anyone out there that doesn’t think Marvel won’t protect their brand, then they don’t understand business. Marvel cares deeply about their characters and how they are represented. While most of the expansion ideas come from us, there have been a few instances where they’ve asked us to join them in something they were planning. With Secret Wars we were invited, along with other manufactures, to create a product based on the story arc they were releasing around that time. Captain America 75th was also designed to celebrate Cap during his birthday celebration.

Thud105 wrote:
I know this post had a confrontational flavor to it and I apologize for that, but I couldn't really think of another way to ask these questions. I LOVE this game and want it to continue to succeed, but it's been getting more and more underwhelming for me lately and I'm hoping that trend recovers (after Noir).


I didn’t see this as confrontational, but I do hope that my answers clear up any questions you had. I always tell people that we would love to see every Marvel character in Legendary, but it will take time.
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Mark Shaunessy

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ducko wrote:
Mark UD OP wrote:
Heck, my favorite character isn’t a playable one and I work here.


I'm still new to the board, so I apologize for not knowing this answer; but, who is your favorite character?





Multiple Man
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