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Rising 5: Runes of Asteros» Forums » General

Subject: KS tempo rss

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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Looking at the tempo of the KS campaign from last two weeks, I can't help but notice, that it more/less just treads in one place. It's very surprising to me, as almost all the other campaigns I've joined were very successful, outnumbering the staring goal 3,4,10 times even. That makes me wonder, why it's not like this with Rising 5? Is it because of the (lack of) advertising (though I can see the BGG banners and their Essen booth was cool)? The use of the app? Artwork? Something inherently not cool about the game itself?
 
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Marc S
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You've picked some very successful kickstarter projects. This seems to be a pretty normal amount of activity based on many of the projects I've backed. As for the things that could be detracting from its success, here are my wild guesses:

1. App integration turns off a surprisingly large number of people.
2. Short game time and light mechanisms (Mastermind code breaking).
3. It's a cooperative game which eliminates people who dislike cooperative games.

Again, there are just my guesses. I'm currently a HERO backer, but #2 is causing me to reconsider. I'm in love with the art and I have no issue with the app integration, but I fear this might be slightly too light for my groups.
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Jamie Johnson
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Well, if I had to guess, looking back at the past few weeks, it would have to be a mix of the app and the game length.

For the app, well, I thought that games like X-com and Alchemists had opened up the doors for app supported board games but it seems like people are still very hesitant about them despite my best efforts to show the game’s merits. On top of that the app removes quite a lot of material from the box so people also have an issue with the perceived “value” of the game. Once again something I’ve tried to reassure people about but in this kiloplastic state KS is currently in, well, we can’t really compete with that.

The game length is kinda the same issue (as in the perceived value). People see a 30 min game and a lot dimiss it without looking any further despite the fact that the game is very replayable and quick to set up with most people who’ve tried it wanting to play again and again whether they’ve beaten the game or not.

That being said not every KS needs to reach astronomical proportions. We’re about 150% funded, we’re within what we estimated for the campaign therefore so far so good! Plus we have the final 48 hours coming up which should hopefully give us a nudge in the right direction
 
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Jamie Johnson
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marcss wrote:

Again, there are just my guesses. I'm currently a HERO backer, but #2 is causing me to reconsider. I'm in love with the art and I have no issue with the app integration, but I fear this might be slightly too light for my groups.


Well, as I said above, bear in mind that a game session rarely takes "only" 30min. In my experience people want to play multiple times and with the game's replayability and the ability to tune the difficulty to your group, a session normally takes the form of a series of quick but tense runthroughs.
 
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Jimmy
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I can guarantee you it's not the art. Vincent Dutrait is one of the most beloved board game artists working right now. The art and the likely the game's too biggest selling points. I think the things working against it are...

1. The game is being published by first time publishers. As far as I can tell Holy Grail Games have never released any games before (I know they have several in the pipeline). There's no built in install base and there's no track record for their company which is huge when putting up money for an unknown quantity. Backers don't know if this company can really deliver.

2. Price. Asking 45$ dollars + shipping for a fairly light 30 minute game is always going to be a hard sell. I'm guessing a lot of people are waiting for retail where they think they'll be able to get it for a cheaper price (they're almost certainly right). Plus at retail they'll have the advantage of reviews so they won't be going in blind.

3. The game doesn't feature any big name designers to hook people in. Kim has had some hits but none of them have broken the top 500.

4. There's no real hook as to why people should buy it now. The two main reason people back kickstarters instead of waiting for retail are to get a discount or to get exclusives. Rising 5 doesn't really have either. Sure you can get the hero edition for the exclusive minis, oversized board, a few cards and an art book but at the point you're practically doubling your investment from 45$ to 85$. That's a huge jump for what is essentially a filler game. They would have faired better if they did what stonemaier games did with Scythe and broke all those items up into different pledge levels. Level 1 gets you the base game, level 2 gets you the base game with minis and cards, level 3 base plus minis, cards and expanded board, then final level is the art collector's edition where you get all the previously listed stuff plus the art book. Or just did them as add ons.
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Obviously I'm not comparing money itself, but rather the pacing. I'm just wondering that if this campaign is *only* 150%, then maybe the game isn't that good after all. Somehow I cannot tell from looking at the app or Rahdo's runthrough.

It's a tough world we live in and being "just" successful is sometimes just not enough.

I like Vincent's art in other games. But in this game... I just cannot help the feeling, that the art here is somewhat derivative/infantile. It definitely has its own flavor and I feel I "kinda like it", but on the other hand, there's something missing or maybe there's "too much". I cannot tell.

Quote:

1. The game is being published by first time publishers.


That's hardly an issue on KS.

Quote:

2. Price. Asking 45$ dollars + shipping for a fairly light 30 minute game is always going to be a hard sell. I'm guessing a lot of people are waiting for retail where they think they'll be able to get it for a cheaper price (they're almost certainly right). Plus at retail they'll have the advantage of reviews so they won't be going in blind.


That sounds plausible, yes.

Quote:

3. The game doesn't feature any big name designers to hook people in. Kim has had some hits but none of them have broken the top 500.


Also not an issue on KS.

Quote:

4. There's no real hook as to why people should buy it now. The two main reason people back kickstarters instead of waiting for retail are to get a discount or to get exclusives.


The problem I see is that they offer miniatures, but they haven't shown them yet. That could be a major con for many.

Is it a filler game, though?
 
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I think it's two things:

1. The price. It's a very expensive game at $45-80 USD.
2. The campaign is not in US dollars. KSers are decidedly American and campaigns that use a foreign currency seem to struggle.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Ah! I think you might be onto something here!
 
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Mark Taraba
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Kickstarters that do very well usually have stretch goals that open add-ons that cost money. "Congratulations, we've hit $150,000 that you have pledged to give us. As a reward we're creating this plastic mini which is KS exclusive and only costs you an extra $20. Whoa look at that we're now halfway to unlocking our next stretch goal for the $30 alternate sculpt add-on." This project hasn't had any of that kind of thing so the only time the pledge amount goes up is when new people join.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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And now it's dropping. Not cool.
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Jamie Johnson
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rattkin wrote:
Obviously I'm not comparing money itself, but rather the pacing. I'm just wondering that if this campaign is *only* 150%, then maybe the game isn't that good after all. Somehow I cannot tell from looking at the app or Rahdo's runthrough.

It's a tough world we live in and being "just" successful is sometimes just not enough.

I like Vincent's art in other games. But in this game... I just cannot help the feeling, that the art here is somewhat derivative/infantile. It definitely has its own flavor and I feel I "kinda like it", but on the other hand, there's something missing or maybe there's "too much". I cannot tell.

Quote:

1. The game is being published by first time publishers.


That's hardly an issue on KS.

Quote:

2. Price. Asking 45$ dollars + shipping for a fairly light 30 minute game is always going to be a hard sell. I'm guessing a lot of people are waiting for retail where they think they'll be able to get it for a cheaper price (they're almost certainly right). Plus at retail they'll have the advantage of reviews so they won't be going in blind.


That sounds plausible, yes.

Quote:

3. The game doesn't feature any big name designers to hook people in. Kim has had some hits but none of them have broken the top 500.


Also not an issue on KS.

Quote:

4. There's no real hook as to why people should buy it now. The two main reason people back kickstarters instead of waiting for retail are to get a discount or to get exclusives.


The problem I see is that they offer miniatures, but they haven't shown them yet. That could be a major con for many.

Is it a filler game, though?


Well the first time publisher element is valid, people want reassurances. At the end of the day I think we’ve done all we can to reassure people and if we started with a smaller project it was for just this reason!
As for the price, well this has been a big subject during the campaign. A lot of people can’t see the cost of the app and such in it but when taken into account along with the quality of the material we think it’s an honest price. However it’s also a short game (even if it’s meant to be played multiple times) which can also turn people off.
Designer wise well Gary Kim and Vincent Dutrait are still quite well known I’d say and, tbh, I don’t think this is an issue on KS.

Well we have put a lot of Ks exclusive items into the game. There’s not a lot more we can do then that to be honest. Those that don’t want to buy it now can wait to see if there’s a store release.

As for the models well I did explain that (the issue we had at the last minute with the sculptor). However I have received two more today with the rest by the end of the project hopefully so that should put paid to any doubts there.

Is it a filler game?

It can be. One round is short (30mins) but it doesn’t have to be and in my experience people tend to want to play it multiple times, that’s kind of its strength. It plays like the final 30min in a much longer game. Looking back we may not have pressed this point enough!

I’m not sure about the whole dollar issue. The other projects I’ve done have never has an issue with this.

As for Add-ons well there’s only so much you can do for a game like this plus we didn’t want to be of a “Kiloplastic” mentality but rather offer the full experience up front for an honest price.

And yes it has dropped by a few % today, which is disheartening, don’t get me wrong, but it should be balanced out by the final 48hr rush and the new video reviews we just received!
 
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Bruno Pinoteau
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Huuuze wrote:
I think it's two things:

1. The price. It's a very expensive game at $45-80 USD.
2. The campaign is not in US dollars. KSers are decidedly American and campaigns that use a foreign currency seem to struggle.


Hey,

Ok for Hero pledge but Agent pledge is fair enough if you compare to Pandemic price (which is now an old game and has no app nor the art).
And KS exclusive contents seem to add another good value to it.
 
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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WhelpSlayer wrote:

Well the first time publisher element is valid, people want reassurances.


I don't think so. I mean, sure, to a certain extent. But KS is its own world now, sort of. I've seen campaigns for games made by first time publishers. If the game looks good enough / bling enough and there is enough incentive to chip in early, people will do it.

WhelpSlayer wrote:

As for the price, well this has been a big subject during the campaign. A lot of people can’t see the cost of the app and such in it but when taken into account along with the quality of the material we think it’s an honest price. However it’s also a short game (even if it’s meant to be played multiple times) which can also turn people off.


As a developer, I can totally understand the costs of making an app. But, see, maybe that's the point. If you're involving an application into your game, maybe the game should just be bigger in scope / longer to play, so that the investment / cost is somewhat "moved" to the game itself and it's easier to justify the price.

Quote:

As for the models well I did explain that (the issue we had at the last minute with the sculptor). However I have received two more today with the rest by the end of the project hopefully so that should put paid to any doubts there.


Most unfortunate, but sadly won't help the campaign anymore. The sculpts should be there from day 0.


Anyho, just to be clear, I've backed it. I'm just a little bit underwhelmed about the state of the campaign and about what I'm getting for that money. But I'll give it the benefit of doubt.
 
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Jamie Johnson
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rattkin wrote:

I don't think so. I mean, sure, to a certain extent. But KS is its own world now, sort of. I've seen campaigns for games made by first time publishers. If the game looks good enough / bling enough and there is enough incentive to chip in early, people will do it.


Believe me, I am totally with you on that point but, in general, people like to be reassured so it never hurts.

rattkin wrote:

As a developer, I can totally understand the costs of making an app. But, see, maybe that's the point. If you're involving an application into your game, maybe the game should just be bigger in scope / longer to play, so that the investment / cost is somewhat "moved" to the game itself and it's easier to justify the price.


Yes for sure, it’s definitely been a very interesting campaign for us and for any others interested in app assisted games. I thought the reception would be better nowadays after the passage of Alchemists and XCom but it seems we’re still not ready for it just yet.

rattkin wrote:

Most unfortunate, but sadly won't help the campaign anymore. The sculpts should be there from day 0.


And I fully agree for the sculpts. To be perfectly frank the sculptor really did leave us in the shit when he said he wouldn’t have them done (or anywhere near finished) just under a week before launch. I was really lucky to find a replacement to be honest and it looks like the models are still going to look great so that’s good at least But yeah, the plan was to have them for day one.

rattkin wrote:

Anyho, just to be clear, I've backed it. I'm just a little bit underwhelmed about the state of the campaign and about what I'm getting for that money. But I'll give it the benefit of doubt.

[/q]

Thank you for your support and the constructive criticism, it all gets taken into account I can assure you. I was hoping with all the new SGs and Ks exclusives that we'd of gotten past the whole "value for money" part but sadly it seems that we're still short.
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