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Subject: Summary of english rules errata from bgg threads rss

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James
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I was confused by the numerous rules errata discussed on these forums, so I made a list. I find that a few of the extra (not yet official) rules add unsatisfying complication to the game ... what do you think?

Official rules clarifications by designer Lemonnier:
* After a complete area breakdown, you take one damage and erase your whole engineer sheet (source).
* In turn-by-turn mode, each team MUST move and CAN activate 1 system (source).
* In real time mode ... [you] MUST move at least once between two system activations (source).
* You can move 0 spaces when using silence (source).

Questions not yet officially answered:
* Does detonating a mine count as a system activation? (Relevant for answering when this can be performed; not relevant with the current english rules).
* Does detonating a mine require the mine gauge to be filled? Does it require there to be no weapons systems breakdowns on the engineer board? (Current english rules require neither).
* In real time mode, can you activate a system immediately after diving back down from surfacing? (The above rules errata by the designer suggests you must move first).
* In turn-by-turn mode, can you activate a system before moving?
* What happens when a complete area breakdown and a self-repair happen at the same time? What happens when a complete area breakdown and a radiation breakdown happen at the same time?
* When you choose to move 0 spaces with silence, do the engineer and first mate still mark a space on their sheets? (I tend to think the captain should still pick a direction with his thumb for his crew to mark their sheets).

Rules clarifications made by other bgg members (some claim to have spoken to the designers, some claim to be making clarifications based on the french rulebook):
* In turn-by-turn mode, movement happens first, then any system activation (source).
* In turn-by-turn mode, using silence effectively moves you twice in the turn because you move first then activate silence (source).
* Torpedoes destroy archer mines, your own mines, and opponent's mines (source).
* Detonating a mine counts as a system activation, which means only one mine can be detonated at a time between moves and one move must happen between detonating a mine and other system activations (source).
* Detonating a mine requires there to be no weapons systems breakdowns on the engineer board (source).
* When you choose to move 0 spaces with silence, the engineer and first mate do not mark a space on their sheets (source).
* When a complete area breakdown and a self-repair happen at the same time, the self-repair happens first so you don't take damage (source).
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Jared Parkinson
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Great Summary!
Now if we could only get some definitive answers on them.
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Matagot Contact
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Official clarifications by Yoann Lemonnier are obviousely correct.

Rules clarifications made by other bgg members are also correct, all of them.

As for the other questions :

Quote:
* Does detonating a mine count as a system activation? (Relevant for answering when this can be performed; not relevant with the current english rules).


Yes. This will be clarified in the new version of the rules.

Quote:
* Does detonating a mine require the mine gauge to be filled? Does it require there to be no weapons systems breakdowns on the engineer board? (Current english rules require neither).


Gauge does not have to be filled, but there musn't be any weapons breakdowns.

Quote:
* In real time mode, can you activate a system immediately after diving back down from surfacing? (The above rules errata by the designer suggests you must move first).


You must move first.

Quote:
* In turn-by-turn mode, can you activate a system before moving?


No. You move first, then you activate a system.

Quote:
* What happens when a complete area breakdown and a self-repair happen at the same time?


Self-repair occurs first. Of course, this one can easily be house ruled if you want to make the game a bit harder

Quote:
What happens when a complete area breakdown and a radiation breakdown happen at the same time?


You take one damage and you erase everything.

Quote:
* When you choose to move 0 spaces with silence, do the engineer and first mate still mark a space on their sheets? (I tend to think the captain should still pick a direction with his thumb for his crew to mark their sheets).


No. If he decides not to move when activating the silence, the captain will make an "O" with his hands, indicating his decision and neither the first mate, nor the engineer will mark anything.
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Brett Thomason
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With the amount of changes from the English manual as written, there's no way it should of been released as is. The team working on translation should of done their job properly or better yet, someone else should of done it
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Tunguska's CPA
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I figure this is as good of a place to ask as any...

When one sub activates Sonar (real time or turn by turn, though for us it happened in turn by turn), the other sub gives them one true piece of information (row, column, sector) and one false piece of information (row, column, sector, but not repeating the data type).

Does the false piece of information have to be possible?

As in, may I say "Sector 1, column F" or "Sector 1, row 6"? May I give coordinates that end up being an island or other terrain?

I argued that your false information has to be possible (so if you say sector 1, the row or column has to be in that sector. However, I did agree that it was ok to get coordinates that matched an island/terrain's location.

Thoughts?
 
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B. Perry
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The two pieces of information can be mutually exclusive. So, in your example, they could point at an island if they're both true. Since only one is true, this still works. They're both possible, they're just mutually exclusive.
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Tunguska's CPA
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Kayvon wrote:
The two pieces of information can be mutually exclusive. So, in your example, they could point at an island if they're both true. Since only one is true, this still works. They're both possible, they're just mutually exclusive.


Ok, cool. That's my thoughts on the island/terrain question,too. But you're saying that you could say "Sector 1, row F" or "Sector 1, row 6"?
 
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B. Perry
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cervantes3773 wrote:
You could say "Sector 1, row F" or "Sector 1, row 6"?
Yes, that's how I interpret it. What you couldn't say is "Sector 2, Sector 3" because you're required to give two different types of information.
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Yichen Lin
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Quote:
Quote:
Does detonating a mine count as a system activation? (Relevant for answering when this can be performed; not relevant with the current english rules).


Yes. This will be clarified in the new version of the rules.


Since detonating a mine is a system activation and the rule says you can not detonating a mine during surfacing. Dose it imply that you can active another system during surfacing?
 
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B. Perry
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No, you can't activate systems while surfaced. For clarity, detonating a mine requires a working mine system, but isn't a full system activation; you don't need or use system "energy" check marks.
 
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Ron Lacock
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Thanks to jameskk and his efforts to pull this topic together as well as to Matagot for providing answers. Since the information became a little scattered during the course of the thread I made a more concise and structured Word Doc for myself so I could print it for my own use. I added it to the files section if it would be of any use to anyone else.
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Chris Brown
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A few more question based on the English Rules.

1)
In turn-by-turn play, when surfacing, the rules say "The Enemy Team takes 3 turns in a row. If the team surfaces during those turns, any remaining turns are lost. Then the game resumes as normal."

Does this mean the enemy could take two turns, surface and immediately begin play again, or does the team who surfaced first then get three turns in a row?

2)
In real time mode, when surfacing, the rules state that "Teammates on a surfaced submarine can use their marker pens only to secure the submarine" Does this restrict the radio operator from tracking enemy movement? If so, could the radio operator use a finger to maintain relative position and mark the route after repairs are complete?

3)
Though only black markers are provided, can the radio operator (or captain) use other dry-erase markers to add additional markings based on system activations?

4)
Is the radio operator required to erase their board when the opponent surfaces? If not, can they switch colors to distinguish the new route (see above)
 
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B. Perry
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1) My understanding is the enemy team's resurfacing counts as 3 turns, also, but I haven't played turn-by-turn enough to show that definitively in the rulebook.

2) That's all true, but the radio operator will also have to draw on the sub at some points, making it harder. Our op usually tries to remember the sequence of directions during that time.

3) That sounds like a house rule to me, but I'll bet most groups are fine with it.

4) He doesn't have to erase his board.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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I just got the revised English version, and the rules are indeed clarified in many respects. Oddly, the rules available from Matagot's site (https://www.matagot.com/IMG/pdf/SONAR_RULES_EN_lr.pdf) are still the old rules.

I'll only note places that are not yet clarified, or where the clarification doesn't match Matagot's response above.

jameskk wrote:
* You can move 0 spaces when using silence (source).
Not clarified, this section has not changed.

Quote:
* Does detonating a mine count as a system activation? (Relevant for answering when this can be performed; not relevant with the current english rules).
Clarified by the revised layout. "Triggering a Mine" is now a separate type of system activation.

Quote:
* Does detonating a mine require the mine gauge to be filled? Does it require there to be no weapons systems breakdowns on the engineer board? (Current english rules require neither).
Now explicit that the mine gauge is irrelevant, only implicit that breakdowns continue to matter.

Quote:
* In real time mode, can you activate a system immediately after diving back down from surfacing? (The above rules errata by the designer suggests you must move first).
Here I would say the rules differ from Matagot's response above. The precise new wording (for real-time mode) is
Captain Sonar rules wrote:
A team cannot activate two systems in a row. The Captain MUST announce a course between two systems' activation [sic].
This seems pretty clear that you CAN activate a system right after diving.

Quote:
* What happens when a complete area breakdown and a self-repair happen at the same time? What happens when a complete area breakdown and a radiation breakdown happen at the same time?
Not clarified. The second conflict doesn't really matter, since in either case you take 1 damage and erase all marks.

Quote:
* When you choose to move 0 spaces with silence, do the engineer and first mate still mark a space on their sheets? (I tend to think the captain should still pick a direction with his thumb for his crew to mark their sheets).
Wording has not changed in this section.

Quote:
* Torpedoes destroy archer mines, your own mines, and opponent's mines (source).
Wording has not changed here, meaning that it's still ambiguous. (Another ambiguity that hasn't been pointed out: If a torpedo impacts in a space adjacent to a mine, the mine is destroyed. This is not clear from the wording.)

There are a couple duplicates, which I'm skipping.
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James
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I would also like to know when exactly a mine will be destroyed (not triggered). The original english rulebook had this wording:

"A torpedo impact has the same outcome as a triggered mine (see Dropping a Mine, to the right). Then play resumes as normal.
If a torpedo impacts in a space with a mine, the mine is destroyed; the Captain erases that mine from his sheet."

Does this mean that only direct hits with a torpedo destroy mines? Indirect hits by torpedo and direct or indirect hits by other mines do not destroy mines?

I assume that when a mine is destroyed, it is not also detonated to do further damage?
 
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Three Headed Monkey
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dthurston wrote:


Quote:
* Does detonating a mine count as a system activation? (Relevant for answering when this can be performed; not relevant with the current english rules).
Clarified by the revised layout. "Triggering a Mine" is now a separate type of system activation.


So do we need replacement engineer sheets? That's a bit sucky.
 
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Dylan Thurston
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Three Headed Monkey wrote:
dthurston wrote:


Quote:
* Does detonating a mine count as a system activation? (Relevant for answering when this can be performed; not relevant with the current english rules).
Clarified by the revised layout. "Triggering a Mine" is now a separate type of system activation.


So do we need replacement engineer sheets? That's a bit sucky.
No, I was unclear. You can now trigger a mine when you could activate some other system, but it still doesn't require any thing on your submarine. (The rule was clarified by the layout of the text in the rulebook.)
 
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Three Headed Monkey
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dthurston wrote:
Three Headed Monkey wrote:
dthurston wrote:


Quote:
* Does detonating a mine count as a system activation? (Relevant for answering when this can be performed; not relevant with the current english rules).
Clarified by the revised layout. "Triggering a Mine" is now a separate type of system activation.


So do we need replacement engineer sheets? That's a bit sucky.
No, I was unclear. You can now trigger a mine when you could activate some other system, but it still doesn't require any thing on your submarine. (The rule was clarified by the layout of the text in the rulebook.)

Ah right ok. I think that's the way we've been playing it. Sweet, thanks for the clarification.
 
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