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Napoleon's Triumph» Forums » General

Subject: Explain to me the weird cavalry > 2 road move > attack-feint thingy rss

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David Janik-Jones
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Okay, so an attack can be made by road movement only if all units are cavalry and this must also be a feint.

So why would I ever point to an approach that is only reachable by road movement and declare it to be an attack approach when my opponent automatically knows it's a feint? Why would he ever choose to defend that approach and be forced t move a unit from that locale's reserve up onto that approach?

I'm failing to see the logic, in this attack declaration.
 
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Derry Salewski
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Okay, so an attack can be made by road movement only if all units are cavalry and this must also be a feint.

So why would I ever point to an approach that is only reachable by road movement and declare it to be an attack approach when my opponent automatically knows it's a feint? Why would he ever choose to defend that approach and be forced t move a unit from that locale's reserve up onto that approach?

I'm failing to see the logic, in this attack declaration.


There's a reason. I forget what it is.

(I think something bad happens if you don't defend attacks?)
 
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Matt Clark
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Okay, so an attack can be made by road movement only if all units are cavalry and this must also be a feint.

So why would I ever point to an approach that is only reachable by road movement and declare it to be an attack approach when my opponent automatically knows it's a feint? Why would he ever choose to defend that approach and be forced t move a unit from that locale's reserve up onto that approach?

I'm failing to see the logic, in this attack declaration.


Because you threaten from multiple angles with a potential real attack and a feint. This forces your opponent to commit some part of his forces into the approach.
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David Janik-Jones
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MplsMatt wrote:
DaveyJJ wrote:
Okay, so an attack can be made by road movement only if all units are cavalry and this must also be a feint.

So why would I ever point to an approach that is only reachable by road movement and declare it to be an attack approach when my opponent automatically knows it's a feint? Why would he ever choose to defend that approach and be forced t move a unit from that locale's reserve up onto that approach?

I'm failing to see the logic, in this attack declaration.


Because you threaten from multiple angles with a real attack and a feint. This forces your opponent to commit some part of his forces into the approach.

Understood. But if I am able to threaten a second approach to the locale with the enemy in it, I still have to declare the road attack first because it has to be a feint (it would make no difference if I declared it second since it isn't ever a real attack). It's obviously a feint, so why would the enemy move a unit into that road approach knowing there is a possibility of that second attack on another approach?

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David "Brother" Eicher
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It forces the opponent to split his corps, or at least commit to defending an approach. Also, if you threaten and your opponent can't defend, he is forced to retreat. This forces you to watch all road approaches extra carefully, because cavalry can strike from non-adjacent spaces.
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David "Brother" Eicher
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If you're asking for thematic reasons why it's required to put a defending unit in the approach when it's obviously a feint, it's because the cavalry is roaring down the road in column formation. If the approach were undefended, they could pour into the area, but since there are defenders, they are forced to redeploy before they can strike.

You can threaten with cavalry along one approach so that you can draw off potential counter-attackers from a future attack on another approach.
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David Janik-Jones
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Brothereicher wrote:
It forces the opponent to split his corps, or at least commit to defending an approach. Also, if you threaten and your opponent can't defend, he is forced to retreat. This forces you to watch all road approaches extra carefully, because cavalry can strike from non-adjacent spaces.

Not following, David. See my example pic. (1) is declared to be an attack approach. It can only obviously come from down the (red) road, and therefore must be a feint. Blue ... err, wait ...
Never mind. I'm an idiot.

Blue has to a) defend that approach (1, in the image above) or, b) retreat. Thus pulling one unit from his corps and then facing an attack from 2. Got it.

Does red still have to move the cavalry units after the declaration of defend or retreat?

Struggling next with how to best use artillery.

Onwards and upwards!
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Alan Richbourg
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Okay, so an attack can be made by road movement only if all units are cavalry and this must also be a feint.

So why would I ever point to an approach that is only reachable by road movement and declare it to be an attack approach when my opponent automatically knows it's a feint? Why would he ever choose to defend that approach and be forced t move a unit from that locale's reserve up onto that approach?

I'm failing to see the logic, in this attack declaration.

David, I think you are misunderstanding the rules here. It's not unusual to misunderstand them. Here goes:

An attack is only resolved as a Feint if the defender selects defending units. If the defender does not select defending units (i.e. chooses not to defend that approach), then the attack is a "real" attack, all units in the defending locale must retreat, and (generally) the attacker must/gets to enter the defending locale.

So naming such an approach an attack approach is an entirely viable thing to do. Usually the defender essentially has to name defending units, since retreat is usually quite bad. By naming defending units, the attack becomes a Feint in the situation you describe, and at least one of those defending units will end up in the defense approach, which is also a good result usually for the attacker.

Edit: posted while you were groking it.
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Alan Richbourg
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DaveyJJ wrote:
Does red still have to move the cavalry units after the declaration of defend or retreat?

Yes. if defend: "the attacking pieces do not enter the defense locale and will end their move in the attack locale instead."
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Rachel Simmons
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Since artillery was raised:

Artillery is almost useless in fluid situations.

But where a defender is defending a static front, the defending units can swich from reserve to the approaches, where they can be very difficult and time consuming to dislodge. During that time, artillery can be deployed in the approaches by both attacker and defender, increasing the rate of loss to the enemy at no cost to the artillery. Further, because an artillery attack and an assault can be combined in the same turn, an otherwise solid defense can be suddenly tipped into catastrophic failure by an artillery-assault combo.

Artillery becomes even mor effective when deployd on high ground, where it can fire every turn rather than every other turn. A strong defense line on hills with guns is a pretty terrifying thing to attack.
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David "Brother" Eicher
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DaveyJJ wrote:

Does red still have to move the cavalry units after the declaration of defend or retreat?


The attacking pieces still have to move if blue retreats, or if he defends, they move to the adjacent area.

"If no defending pieces are named, then the defender must retreat (see section 12). The attacking player then makes his attack declaration, and moves his pieces into the defense locale." (page 5, rightmost column)

Artillery use is a tricky one. One of my favorite places to use it is at the narrow crossing behind St. Hilaire. An artillery and a 3 strength in that approach make it almost completely unforceable for the entire game.
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David "Brother" Eicher
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bowen wrote:

Artillery becomes even mor effective when deployd on high ground, where it can fire every turn rather than every other turn. A strong defense line on hills with guns is a pretty terrifying thing to attack.


Does this mean that artillery can only lead a defense every other turn? Never made that connection.

ETA: Never mind. Just reread the pertinent rules and understand your train of thought there.

They can be named as defenders multiple turns in a row, but they can be used to fire on the enemies massed in the locale ahead of them every turn too.
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Rachel Simmons
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While artillery can be named as the lead units in defense, their main "defense" is offense: declaring attacks on an enemy-occupied locale.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
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bowen wrote:
While artillery can be named as the lead units in defense, their main "defense" is offense: declaring attacks on an enemy-occupied locale.

It's absolutely great to see you participating in the rules forum again, Rachel. Welcome back!
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Rachel Simmons
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Sphere wrote:
bowen wrote:
While artillery can be named as the lead units in defense, their main "defense" is offense: declaring attacks on an enemy-occupied locale.

It's absolutely great to see you participating in the rules forum again, Rachel. Welcome back!


Honestly, there are so many experienced NT players whose knowledge of the rules may equal or exceed my own memory-challenged recollections that I largely feel redundant. But I do generally keep up with what's going on.
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Kåre Dyvik
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In keeping with the OP:
Even 1-strength cavalry units may be useful when attacking by road.

As has been discussed; the idea is either to 1) feint and force the defender to commit units to the approach, or 2) make the defender retreat (either because he chooses to, or is forced to because he has no eligible defending units - all have been used against attacks from other approaches).

Note that a 1-cav is allowed to attack, even if it cannot LEAD an attack (attack with zero leading units is perfectly possible). It will remain unharmed in both scenarios above.
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David Hansen
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Mildly off topic, but it's really nice to see the NT board perking back up now that some new game stock has gone back into the market. Now if I could just find an IRL opponent in St. Louis.

And yeah, woohoo Rachel. Good to see you 'round these parts again. This board was starting to feel a bit like an orphan moon.
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David Janik-Jones
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I've had my copy for a while but still have issues grokking it after absences from play.
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DaveyJJ wrote:
I've had my copy for a while but still have issues grokking it after absences from play.


I'm always willing to play/explain/learn this game on Vassal. But the problem is probably that I'm in Belgium and thus GMT+1 ?

 
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Fabrice Dubois
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Pokke wrote:
DaveyJJ wrote:
I've had my copy for a while but still have issues grokking it after absences from play.


I'm always willing to play/explain/learn this game on Vassal. But the problem is probably that I'm in Belgium and thus GMT+1 ?


I am living in Paris
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Thibaut Palfer-Sollier
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At some point, I may be interested in such Vassal introduction to the game by a veteran.
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Is there an application through which 2 or more people could share a screen, and everyone gets to draw on that same screen with his own marker? With a microphone, I imagine that would be a wonderful way to teach or even play games.
 
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WalterLai wrote:
Is there an application through which 2 or more people could share a screen, and everyone gets to draw on that same screen with his own marker? With a microphone, I imagine that would be a wonderful way to teach or even play games.

Okay, I did a search and this came up: http://www.twiddla.com/
You can upload your own image in place of the digital whiteboard. For example the map of Napoleon's Triumph.
 
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Pokke
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I gave it a try, but would recommend Vassal or ZunTzu (with a microphone/chat program) to explain games...
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Max Sewell
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"(if the attack is by road move, it must be declared a feint)" —page 5.

I believe I understand the implications of the rules (forcing a defender to make choices, etc.). What I still don't understand is why it must be declared a feint (other than the rules say it must be so). Is it too much time advancing in road column and too little time to form attack column? A compromise with unit reach and ability? If so, why allow an attack declaration?

It is a particular detail and a complication after all.
 
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