$35.00
Gillum the Stoor
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The Final Dream (Batch) is only 4 (or 3) turns long, as Ren must complete one line of her poem on every turn.

For players to win, the Atman must meet the specified requirements when the poem is complete: every card in the Atman must be of a color in Ren's Heart. (The original Japanese version also required that each color in Ren's Heart must appear in the Atman.)

In an earlier thread, there was some discussion of whether players lost automatically if Ren completed the Final Dream's poem and the Atman didn't mean these requirements.

In a later thread Zimeon (the translator of the Japanese rules) suggested that the loss wasn't automatic. Following the poem's completion, Feth may use red cards to discard cards from the Atman - which may be necessary for victory.

But in a subsequent thread, Duncan Malloy (who adapted Zimeon's rules for Osprey) stated that the red cards cannot be used after completion of the Final Dream's poem.

(Interestingly, the latter referred to Ren's use of red cards - which is allowed in the Osprey edition but not in the original Japanese. I suppose perhaps Osprey tightened the timing here to compensate for allowing Ren to use red cards.)

This limitation can be meaningful: it may be that an undesired (non-Heart color) card in the Atman is exposed by taking from the Atman the card used to complete the Final Dream's poem. It would thus not be possible to use a red card to discard that undesired card before the poem is completed.

I have identified another case in which the Atman could be made consistent in the same turn as (but after) the Final Dream's poem is completed.

In the fourth round (for example), Ren could first play a card from her Score Pile to complete the poem and then take a card from the Atman (which she is allowed to do once per round) and discard it (because the poem is complete) - and discarding this cad might be essential to ensure that the Atman matches her Heart.

(I believe that it has been established that Ren can play cards from her Score Pile prior to taking a card from the Atman. I think that means that, if the Atman were properly colored, players could win the game in the last round of the Final Dream without Ren taking a card from the Atman in that round.)

Again, the order could be important. Consider the following scenario:
- Ren's Heart cards are all blue; the last one is a 3.
- The Atman has a blue 3 and a yellow 1.
- Ren has a red 2 in her Score Pile.

Ideally, Ren could play the red 2 from her Score Pile, completing the poem, and then draw and discard the yellow 1 from the Atman.

If the game ends as soon as the poem is complete, the players lose because of the yellow card in the Atman.

Ren would be stuck at this point. If instead she takes the blue 3 from the Atman, she must discard it and the poem is not complete; the players lose. If she takes the yellow 1 from the Atman, she must add it to the poem. Again, the poem is not complete (the last line has only 4 syllables), and she can no longer add to it the red 2 from her Score Pile.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Simon Lundström
Sweden
Täby
flag msg tools
Now who are these five?
badge
Come, come, all children who love fairy tales.
mbmbmbmbmb
Kuro's original design (and a kind of an unwritten rule in all his games) is that card abilities can be used as interrupts at any moment. So as per the original rules, using a red card in the last moment is allowed. (Also, as per the original rules, it's not Ren who uses the red cards, but Feth.)

If Osprey wanted this specifically to not be so, then that is so in the Osprey ruleset.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Duncan Molloy
United Kingdom
Oxford
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
mb
Sorry for the confusion here guys!

Here are the rules which are explicit:

1) The card abilities are interrupts. They can be used by either player during either player's turn.
2) The card abilities can also be used at the end of a dream before the next dream is set up.
3) Ren must remove a card from the Atman on her turn (adding it to the poem if possible, discarding it if not).
4) Ren may add cards from her score pile during the final dream.

Ren's turn ends when she has taken her actions, and it ends immediately. In all cases except the final round of the final dream, any abilities triggered by Ren after she takes her action take place before the start of Feth's turn, rather than during hers.

Spoiler territory
Spoiler (click to reveal)
This becomes more important as Ren loses the ability to use card abilities.

Take this example: final dream, the poem is complete, but the colours don't match. Ren announces this, and the game is lost. Can Feth then just trigger as many abilities as possible to save the game? No, because Ren has announced that the game is lost.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gillum the Stoor
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Dunc wrote:
1) The card abilities are interrupts. They can be used by either player during either player's turn.
2) The card abilities can also be used at the end of a dream before the next dream is set up.
3) Ren must remove a card from the Atman on her turn (adding it to the poem if possible, discarding it if not).
4) Ren may add cards from her score pile during the final dream.

Ren's turn ends when she has taken her actions, and it ends immediately. In all cases except the final round of the final dream, any abilities triggered by Ren after she takes her action take place before the start of Feth's turn, rather than during hers.

I don't quite follow this.

Do Ren's "actions" include both #3 and #4? If so, then it would seem that Ren could complete the poem using #4 and then use #3 to discard a bad card from the Atman, winning the game.

Is that right?

(This suggests another question. What if the Atman is already right and Ren completes the poem using #4. Do players win right away - or must Ren still remove a card from the Atman? That could cause trouble if the Atman is down to 1 card - unlikely - or if playing that the Atman must include all the Heart colors.)

When I first read your response, I thought that you were confirming the earlier statement that red power could not be used after completing the poem of the Final Dream - because of your statement that "any abilities triggered by Ren after she takes her action take place before the start of Feth's turn" (and thus after the game had been lost).

But you wrote that this applies to "all cases except the final round of the final dream" - which is, of course, the case under discussion.

Is the exception that Ren may use card abilities after completing the poem and still within her turn (allowing players to win)?

Or had you meant rather to emphasize that she can't use abilities "before the start of Feth's turn" in this case because Feth doesn't get another turn?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gillum the Stoor
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
OK - I think that I get it now.

Consider the round on which Ren is working on the last line of the Final Dream's poem.

She may choose an action from the following:

A. Use a red-card ability. (She could also use a gold-card ability, but to no effect)
B. Remove a card from the Atman and play or discard it (if she has not already done so).
C. Play a card from her Score Pile (if there are any).

Action B or C might complete the poem. If it does, Ren must say so.

If the action doesn't complete the poem, Ren gets the same choice again (although each action reduces the number available to Ren). If she stops playing before the poem is complete, the players lose.

If an action completes the poem, and Ren has already removed a card from the Atman, the game is over.

If she hasn't, she use any available red-card abilities she likes, until they are used up.

When she no longer has red-card abilities, or no longer wants to use them, she can remove and discard a card from the Atman.

At that point the game is over.

When the game ends with the poem being complete, Ren reveals her heart. Players win if the Atman has no card whose color is not in Ren's heart.

If playing that, in addition, the Atman must have all the colors in Ren's heart, I do not know whether Ren can declare victory in this final round without removing a card from the Atman. (The rules do say, "On Ren’s turn she must take a single card from the Atman.")
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.