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Subject: Renee Davis : Fast facts rss

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Mac Mcleod
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http://heavy.com/news/2016/10/renee-davis-pregnant-woman-muc...

Quote:
Davis, who had been struggling with depression, sent a text message to another person saying she was not well, The News Tribune reports. That person then called the sheriff’s office to go check on her.

A suicidal Auburn woman,armed with a gun, is shot and killed by King County Sheriff's Deputies #komonews pic.twitter.com/nJ2ltrpxF5

— KOMO Unit 14 (@KOMO_UNIT14) October 22, 2016

“They tried repeatedly to get somebody to come to the door, nobody did,” King County Sheriff’s Sergeant Cindi West told KOMO News. “But, they could see the two kids running around inside then house.”

The initial report was that Davis had a rifle, but deputies said they found her armed with a handgun, KOMO reports.

Quote:
King County Sheriff Dept: initial call said suicidal woman with rifle and 2 young kids in home in Auburn. #KomoNews pic.twitter.com/fvIVZZgRVO

— Suzanne Phan (@SuzannePhan) October 22, 2016


“The found her in the house and she was armed with a handgun,” West told the news station. The deputies then both opened fire and Davis was struck at least once. The fired multiple shots, West said.

Medics responded to the home, but Davis was pronounced dead at the scene.

“I don’t know what led up to the shooting,” West told Q13 News.

Davis’ children were not harmed.


Deputies performing a "wellness" check on a young pregnant woman with a history of mental illness who had a gun when they arrived shot her.

Young turks commentary here


It's not anti-police but it is for better training handling people with mental illness.

Other articles on the shooting.

https://photographyisnotacrime.com/2016/10/24/washington-cop...

http://countercurrentnews.com/2016/10/cops-pregnant-woman-na...
 
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Jon M
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So they should stand by and potentially let her kill her own children and then herself?
 
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David Dearlove
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Jon_1066 wrote:
So they should stand by and potentially let her kill her own children and then herself?

The elephant in the room is of course the gun. A gun presumably bought for self protection caused its owner to die.
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Andy Leighton
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Jon_1066 wrote:
So they should stand by and potentially let her kill her own children and then herself?


Not at all. But to some people with mental illness and who are armed with a gun then constantly knocking and then bursting in with their guns drawn is a pretty bad thing to do. It makes a bad situation far worse.

What would be far better is to have better training for the police on handling people with mental illness (and not just for cases like these) and in larger cities maybe even have some officers who are more highly trained in mental health issues.
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Richard Keiser

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Jon_1066 wrote:
So they should stand by and potentially let her kill her own children and then herself?


Yes, because shooting her was the only option. That police response flowchart appears to be quite simplified.

Arrive > Assess (perhaps) > Shoot
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Angelus Seniores
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i feel that for US police the mere mention of "gun" triggers their sense of danger ie as if the person holding it has effective plans on using it, which is often not the case.
once they are in that mindset they only focus on disarming, or eliminating the threat of the gun, and since people with mental illness tend to not listen to common sense/the people around them or dont understand them, then the shootout is a foregone conclusion.

once a suspect feels threatened himself by the police, it doesnt incline him either to drop it, feeling forced to use it for defense.
ie if someone points a weapon at you, its a natural reflex to point your weapon at them.

policemen definitely need to learn to appreciate real danger ie distinguish between possible danger but not about to happen and immediate danger that is highly likely to happen.

i have seen this occurring in several news articles of shootouts that as soon as witnesses talk about a suspect "holding a gun" that police switch to this "disarm or kill" mode with deadly consequences, as if they're automatons.

of course, it doesnt help given there are so many gun-bearing people in USA that dont like the police/authority of any kind.
it forces policemen into such a wrong mindset.

its a question of being able to psycho-analyse a suspect's behaviour to determine their likeliness to use violence, but isnt properly applied/learned during training.
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Angelsenior wrote:
i feel that for US police the mere mention of "gun" triggers their sense of danger ie as if the person holding it has effective plans on using it, which is often not the case.
once they are in that mindset they only focus on disarming, or eliminating the threat of the gun, and since people with mental illness tend to not listen to common sense/the people around them or dont understand them, then the shootout is a foregone conclusion.

once a suspect feels threatened himself by the police, it doesnt incline him either to drop it, feeling forced to use it for defense.
ie if someone points a weapon at you, its a natural reflex to point your weapon at them.

policemen definitely need to learn to appreciate real danger ie distinguish between possible danger but not about to happen and immediate danger that is highly likely to happen.

i have seen this occurring in several news articles of shootouts that as soon as witnesses talk about a suspect "holding a gun" that police switch to this "disarm or kill" mode with deadly consequences, as if they're automatons.

of course, it doesnt help given there are so many gun-bearing people in USA that dont like the police/authority of any kind.
it forces policemen into such a wrong mindset.

its a question of being able to psycho-analyse a suspect's behaviour to determine their likeliness to use violence, but isnt properly applied/learned during training.
And, to take the individual patrol officers side in this, this a fundamental problem with how we perceive police responsibilities, roles and duties. They have morphed from peace officers to threat neutralizers. It should be a much higher paid job, with higher requirements for training, rettraining and temperment/mental stability. Cops are essentially combat counselers who need to be able to understand human behavior and psychology to the point where they can make very quick assessments and de-escalate if possible. Because that is so hard and expensive, we instead take the violent shortcut of neutralization. It is causing a violence escalation spiral as the public and the police see each other as possible threats and react to each other accordingly. That the U.S. is so heavily armed makes it even worse.
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jeremy cobert
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DavidDearlove wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
So they should stand by and potentially let her kill her own children and then herself?

The elephant in the room is of course the gun. A gun presumably bought for self protection caused its owner to die.


Did the gun jump up and shoot her ? wow, my guns never do that, they must be defective.

also, you nutters dont want people to defend themselves, but you want more cops. then the cops start shooting people. So which is it with you nutters ?
 
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Angelus Seniores
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TheChin! wrote:
Angelsenior wrote:
.
And, to take the individual patrol officers side in this, this a fundamental problem with how we perceive police responsibilities, roles and duties. They have morphed from peace officers to threat neutralizers. It should be a much higher paid job, with higher requirements for training, rettraining and temperment/mental stability. Cops are essentially combat counselers who need to be able to understand human behavior and psychology to the point where they can make very quick assessments and de-escalate if possible. Because that is so hard and expensive, we instead take the violent shortcut of neutralization. It is causing a violence escalation spiral as the public and the police see each other as possible threats and react to each other accordingly. That the U.S. is so heavily armed makes it even worse.


common sense goes a long way in assessing a situation.
you can already start a pre-evaluation the moment the call comes in, ie what kind of person is the suspect? is it in a family house or a gang neighborhood? whats the source of the altercation?
of course its linked to the quality of the info of the call and subject to change but it can help dpto differentiate between high risk-low risk.

and for training, it can already help if some policmen get the additional training; you send a mixed team to the scene, the trained officer evaluate the situation and their colleagues that didnt train follow their guidance.
 
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Angelus Seniores
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jeremycobert wrote:


also, you nutters dont want people to defend themselves, but you want more cops. then the cops start shooting people. So which is it with you nutters ?


the cops only shoot a suspect because of the threat he poses to them holding a gun.
if he doesnt have a gun, then they dont feel threatened/dont need to shoot him either.
 
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Born To Lose, Live To Win
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Angelsenior wrote:
common sense goes a long way in assessing a situation.
you can already start a pre-evaluation the moment the call comes in, ie what kind of person is the suspect? is it in a family house or a gang neighborhood? whats the source of the altercation?
of course its linked to the quality of the info of the call and subject to change but it can help dpto differentiate between high risk-low risk.

and for training, it can already help if some policmen get the additional training; you send a mixed team to the scene, the trained officer evaluate the situation and their colleagues that didnt train follow their guidance.
I think common sense is just vague short-hand for experience filtered through education. Most of these situations are not common and the people involved are often not acting rationally which makes logic very tricky. The key is to upgrade all police officers education so that their assessments of situations are educated common sense, not biased common sense based on fear.

The problem, at least at the beginning of reform, is having enough of your proposed specialists to accompany first responders who have to make these decisions quickly. In many locations with single-officer patrols they might not even have backup before they have decide to use lethal force or not.
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J.D. Hall
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Parse and nitpick all you want, but without more detailed information, it's hard to determine exactly what transpired (couldn't get the link to open).

From what little I read and saw, a massive tragedy. I know everyone wants to talk about GUNZ!!!! but the real issue is the lack of mental health services. You have a woman with two children, pregnant with a third, claiming to be suicidal/feeling bad. Why isn't she in a hospital? Why isn't her OB/GYN monitoring her situation more closely? Those are the root cause of all this. The fact she had a firearm may be a trigger (pun intended) to the incident, but the ground work was laid months or years ago when she contracted a mental disease.

Okay, go back to screaming GUNZ!!!! at each other.
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Mac Mcleod
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ImaSokpupet wrote:
History of mental illness. Owns a gun. I wonder what the solution is.


Literally one of the few people in america who actually hunts to feed her family. Kinda tricky.


---

In any case, one reason this caught my eye is that my standard for bad shootings has often been the pretty young pregnant lady standard. I.e. "Would the cops have shot a pretty young pregnant lady in the same situation? Then this is a biased shooting!"

I REALLY wish we had body cams here. But I suspect she was pointing the gun at them after being told to lower the gun.

Also, it would have been better for her friends to go check on her instead of involving the police.

 
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David Dearlove
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jeremycobert wrote:
DavidDearlove wrote:
Jon_1066 wrote:
So they should stand by and potentially let her kill her own children and then herself?

The elephant in the room is of course the gun. A gun presumably bought for self protection caused its owner to die.


Did the gun jump up and shoot her ? wow, my guns never do that, they must be defective.

also, you nutters dont want people to defend themselves, but you want more cops. then the cops start shooting people. So which is it with you nutters ?

In the UK this would not have happened full stop. Guns are so rare here that in the rare cases a gun was involved professionals would deal with it, not local cops.
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