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A Feast for Odin» Forums » General

Subject: Two Players rss

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Jim Parkin
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As open as the game is (not necessarily a problem as such!), how does this stand up for two player games? This is my go-to player count. Obviously, the whole corpus of Uwe's catalog works very well at two players, but given the breadth of this game with no scaling, I'm curious what the community thinks about this game at a lower count.
 
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Steph
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awesome- I surmise you like Arle. Arle is better but Odin is still a top game for me. works great with 2p.
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Jeremy Avery
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punkin312 wrote:
awesome- I surmise you like Arle. Arle is better but Odin is still a top game for me. works great with 2p.


What she said, except that Odin is better and Arle is pretty good.

I mostly play A Feast for Odin 1p and 2p, and I am already at 12 plays in 5 days. It is tied for the best game I have ever played played (tied with Agricola). It is a bit open, but the Occupations help your focus, and in the 2p game, you should be tracking some of what your opponent does so you can fit in a strategy that will interfere with the things they need.

Of course, they will be doing the same to you...

I can't believe the number of times in a 2p game that Kris (my 2p gamer for this one) and I are in each other's way.
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Jesse Rockwell
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punkin312 wrote:
awesome- I surmise you like Arle. Arle is better but Odin is still a top game for me. works great with 2p.


Haha agreed it works well with 2. Not sure I agree it's better than Arle yet. Need some more plays. I really like how many more different paths to victory there are. A lot of times our Arle games come down to who builds the most 15 point buildings. This seems to have more ways to get separation. Both are top 10 material though. Also... the occupation cards adds a lot more too.
 
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Clyde W
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While 60 action spaces (or whatever the total count is) seems like a lot for 2p, most of the action spaces are irrelevant for most players persuing specific strategies. Like, some spaces only work if you have one of the three types of boats. And you might go the whole game without buying a boat. In fact, by buying a boat, you're actively working against your strategy.

This makes it so that the number of viable action spaces are relatively small, and some action spaces most strategies find very useful (typically the spaces that allow you to upgrade goods), so even at 2p, there will still be contention on the board.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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I'll be Negative Nellie here and say it loses so much playing with two compared to three or four. It becomes much more multi-player solitaire as each player can basically do their own strategies without care of what the other player is doing. The great part of Feast for me is to figure out plan b and c when other players are taking the spots I want, and also to work out when it's especially important to go first the next time, meaning I'll have to do less the current turn. Both of these are nearly completely lost with two players.

I'd play Fields over Feast two player and I have someone whom I can play with two player nearly any time.
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Christina Crouch
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I think that 3 players might be the ideal number for Odin. The game plays perfectly well with 2, and there is still some action denial, but I feel like it sings better with 3.
 
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Brian Petersen
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I'll go as far as saying this rude statement.

If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.

My last 2P game I Got 127 points with 3 exploration boards and 2 houses. In a 3P we might even run out of houses.

I see people give this game a rating of 6 and saying there is no interaction while they barely fill out their homeboard. The truth is that they simply play a different game than us who has been grinding it out since release.
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Clyde W
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jschlickbernd wrote:
I'll be Negative Nellie here and say it loses so much playing with two compared to three or four. It becomes much more multi-player solitaire as each player can basically do their own strategies without care of what the other player is doing. The great part of Feast for me is to figure out plan b and c when other players are taking the spots I want, and also to work out when it's especially important to go first the next time, meaning I'll have to do less the current turn. Both of these are nearly completely lost with two players.

I'd play Fields over Feast two player and I have someone whom I can play with two player nearly any time.
It is absolutely more open and MPSy at 2p. But the downtime is way less as well. So, you know, tradeoffs.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Armsved wrote:
I'll go as far as saying this rude statement.

If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.

My last 2P game I Got 127 points with 3 exploration boards and 2 houses. In a 3P we might even run out of houses.

I see people give this game a rating of 6 and saying there is no interaction while they barely fill out their homeboard. The truth is that they simply play a different game than us who has been grinding it out since release.


Well there are the same number of spaces with two, three, or four. So in your world somehow these spaces become more competed over? And please don't assume poor play because someone disagrees with you. I've now played the game 10 times does that make your elite status or not??

Really angry about this post.
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Clyde W
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Armsved wrote:
I'll go as far as saying this rude statement.

If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.

My last 2P game I Got 127 points with 3 exploration boards and 2 houses. In a 3P we might even run out of houses.

I see people give this game a rating of 6 and saying there is no interaction while they barely fill out their homeboard. The truth is that they simply play a different game than us who has been grinding it out since release.
I get that sense too, after having only played three times (at 2p, 4p and 4p). After you wrap your head around a few of the game's tricks, certain action spaces become much more contested. What action spaces have you seen continually fought over by experienced players?
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clydeiii wrote:
While 60 action spaces (or whatever the total count is) seems like a lot for 2p, most of the action spaces are irrelevant for most players persuing specific strategies. Like, some spaces only work if you have one of the three types of boats. [/b]And you might go the whole game without buying a boat. In fact, by buying a boat, you're actively working against your strategy.[/b]

This might be true, but remember that you can pay silver AT ANY TIME for a boat. Dropping 3 silver for a 3-point boat makes you lose no points at all, and potentially gains you points. You might need the silver to pad the game board, pay for a feast, or buy things, but spare silver can easily get you a boat or two.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Remember each silver is worth a point so you do lose points when paying for a boat. You don't lose tempo which at some points can be more important than the points you lose buying boats.

The issue I have with the two player is that two players can pursue two different strategies and it's almost like they are playing two solo games.
 
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Remember each silver is worth a point so you do lose points when paying for a boat. You don't lose tempo which at some points can be more important than the points you lose buying boats.

The issue I have with the two player is that two players can pursue two different strategies and it's almost like they are playing two solo games.

How do you lose points since the boat is worth the same amount of points as you spend, potentially more? I'm probably missing something dumb, sorry.

I personally like the low-conflict nature where two players can often avoid stepping on each other. It will of course depend on the players. People who want to screw the opponent over as much as possible might enjoy something like 7 Wonders Duel far more.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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I misunderstood your post. What you were saying is that it's a net neutral. What I was saying was that you lose points because silver is worth one point. Got it now .
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jschlickbernd wrote:
I misunderstood your post. What you were saying is that it's a net neutral. What I was saying was that you lose points because silver is worth one point. Got it now .

Yep. If someone doesn't have much silver and needs it to pay for actions or feasts or board spaces, by all means keep it.

If someone has spare silver, then grabbing boat(s) is a net neutral and opens up some valuable options.
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Jonathan
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It plays REALLY well with just two. While it can seem pretty open there are a number of designed "pinch-points" which players will often fight over.

Oh, and while Fields of Arle is really good this - after a few plays - seems even better.

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Brian Petersen
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Armsved wrote:
I'll go as far as saying this rude statement.

If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.

My last 2P game I Got 127 points with 3 exploration boards and 2 houses. In a 3P we might even run out of houses.

I see people give this game a rating of 6 and saying there is no interaction while they barely fill out their homeboard. The truth is that they simply play a different game than us who has been grinding it out since release.


Well there are the same number of spaces with two, three, or four. So in your world somehow these spaces become more competed over? And please don't assume poor play because someone disagrees with you. I've now played the game 10 times does that make your elite status or not??

Really angry about this post.


There's no elite status and there's no reason to take offence You are absolutely correct that there's more interaction for worker actions, when there's the same amount of spaces but 50% more workers. I don't disagree with anything you said. I also think there is more interaction with more players.

However, houses and exploration boards are huge part of the tension and interaction in this game. I truly belive that exploration boards are the family growth of this game. Compared to family growth in agricola and other worker placement games, this is what will make you more efficient. You WILL want to be first player and have a longboat when Shetland or Farao Island gets flipped over. You might even want to have a few pieces saved up once that happens to get those fat bonuses and easy income. (If not, then you are likely going for animals).

And I'm not assuming people are bad if they disagree, I just assume that if you can't even fill out your homeboard or break 60 points, then how are you supposed to feel any tension with regards to exploration.

This was not directed to you, this was directed to the players who give the game bad ratings and don't think there's any tension or interaction when they've really only scratched the surface.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Armsved wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
Armsved wrote:
I'll go as far as saying this rude statement.

If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.

My last 2P game I Got 127 points with 3 exploration boards and 2 houses. In a 3P we might even run out of houses.

I see people give this game a rating of 6 and saying there is no interaction while they barely fill out their homeboard. The truth is that they simply play a different game than us who has been grinding it out since release.


Well there are the same number of spaces with two, three, or four. So in your world somehow these spaces become more competed over? And please don't assume poor play because someone disagrees with you. I've now played the game 10 times does that make your elite status or not??

Really angry about this post.


There's no elite status and there's no reason to take offence You are absolutely correct that there's more interaction for worker actions, when there's the same amount of spaces but 50% more workers. I don't disagree with anything you said. I also think there is more interaction with more players.

However, houses and exploration boards are huge part of the tension and interaction in this game. I truly belive that exploration boards are the family growth of this game. Compared to family growth in agricola and other worker placement games, this is what will make you more efficient. You WILL want to be first player and have a longboat when Shetland or Farao Island gets flipped over. You might even want to have a few pieces saved up once that happens to get those fat bonuses and easy income. (If not, then you are likely going for animals).

And I'm not assuming people are bad if they disagree, I just assume that if you can't even fill out your homeboard or break 60 points, then how are you supposed to feel any tension with regards to exploration.

This was not directed to you, this was directed to the players who give the game bad ratings and don't think there's any tension or interaction when they've really only scratched the surface.


I say there can be little interaction in a two player game and you respond with

Quote:
If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.


And I'm not supposed to take offense??? Your strategies may be the same and then yes there's interaction. But there's more than one way to play this game successfully and if two people choose different strategies then the likelihood of interaction goes way down. There is a winning strategy without exploration boards, I've seen it.

Quote:
I just assume that if you can't even fill out your homeboard or break 60 points, then how are you supposed to feel any tension with regards to exploration.


I have no clue where this statement came from. No one said that. Not even me.

So instead of taking shots, why don't you actually explain how two differing strategies can be interesting and competitive in two player Feast? Or do you really believe there's only one strategy and that's where the two player interaction comes from? In that case I'll respectfully disagree.

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Brian Petersen
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Armsved wrote:
jschlickbernd wrote:
Armsved wrote:
I'll go as far as saying this rude statement.

If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.

My last 2P game I Got 127 points with 3 exploration boards and 2 houses. In a 3P we might even run out of houses.

I see people give this game a rating of 6 and saying there is no interaction while they barely fill out their homeboard. The truth is that they simply play a different game than us who has been grinding it out since release.


Well there are the same number of spaces with two, three, or four. So in your world somehow these spaces become more competed over? And please don't assume poor play because someone disagrees with you. I've now played the game 10 times does that make your elite status or not??

Really angry about this post.


There's no elite status and there's no reason to take offence You are absolutely correct that there's more interaction for worker actions, when there's the same amount of spaces but 50% more workers. I don't disagree with anything you said. I also think there is more interaction with more players.

However, houses and exploration boards are huge part of the tension and interaction in this game. I truly belive that exploration boards are the family growth of this game. Compared to family growth in agricola and other worker placement games, this is what will make you more efficient. You WILL want to be first player and have a longboat when Shetland or Farao Island gets flipped over. You might even want to have a few pieces saved up once that happens to get those fat bonuses and easy income. (If not, then you are likely going for animals).

And I'm not assuming people are bad if they disagree, I just assume that if you can't even fill out your homeboard or break 60 points, then how are you supposed to feel any tension with regards to exploration.

This was not directed to you, this was directed to the players who give the game bad ratings and don't think there's any tension or interaction when they've really only scratched the surface.


I say there can be little interaction in a two player game and you respond with

Quote:
If you feel there is no interaction even in a 2P game. Its because you and your opponent arent very good.


And I'm not supposed to take offense??? Your strategies may be the same and then yes there's interaction. But there's more than one way to play this game successfully and if two people choose different strategies then the likelihood of interaction goes way down. There is a winning strategy without exploration boards, I've seen it.

Quote:
I just assume that if you can't even fill out your homeboard or break 60 points, then how are you supposed to feel any tension with regards to exploration.


I have no clue where this statement came from. No one said that. Not even me.

So instead of taking shots, why don't you actually explain how two differing strategies can be interesting and competitive in two player Feast? Or do you really believe there's only one strategy and that's where the two player interaction comes from? In that case I'll respectfully disagree.



Which strategies do not require you to do exploration?

If an exploration board has been flipped and you are still placing tiles on your homeboard, you are doing it wrong.
 
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Jim Parkin
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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Oh I don't know, the strategies I've been beaten with because I was doing the exploration board strategy?

Really though you need to look hard at the houses. Remember they take all colors instead of only blue and green. The wood/stone ones not so much, but the log cabin one, yes. This makes them a very cheap and easy alternative to the investment needed to fully exploit exploration boards. And you can get more than one of them. In two player in fact while Odin et al are off trying to roll dice to get blue/green pieces, you can take advantage of single viking spaces to get reds and oranges and take all of the log cabins. And go first as well. This is very viable in two player Feast.

Which brings me back to why I don't think two players is a good player count. One player does log cabins, the other does exploration boards and rarely will they compete. There's probably an animal breeding upgrade strategy in there as well, taking the exploration boards that are mostly spaces as in two players, there's little chance of one player getting all the boards.

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Rolands Briedis
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I made new thread how to add interaction in 2 player game, please say what you think:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1660980/more-player-interac...


jschlickbernd wrote:
I'll be Negative Nellie here and say it loses so much playing with two compared to three or four. It becomes much more multi-player solitaire as each player can basically do their own strategies without care of what the other player is doing. The great part of Feast for me is to figure out plan b and c when other players are taking the spots I want, and also to work out when it's especially important to go first the next time, meaning I'll have to do less the current turn. Both of these are nearly completely lost with two players.

I'd play Fields over Feast two player and I have someone whom I can play with two player nearly any time.
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Brian Petersen
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Oh I don't know, the strategies I've been beaten with because I was doing the exploration board strategy?

Really though you need to look hard at the houses. Remember they take all colors instead of only blue and green. The wood/stone ones not so much, but the log cabin one, yes. This makes them a very cheap and easy alternative to the investment needed to fully exploit exploration boards. And you can get more than one of them. In two player in fact while Odin et al are off trying to roll dice to get blue/green pieces, you can take advantage of single viking spaces to get reds and oranges and take all of the log cabins. And go first as well. This is very viable in two player Feast.

Which brings me back to why I don't think two players is a good player count. One player does log cabins, the other does exploration boards and rarely will they compete. There's probably an animal breeding upgrade strategy in there as well, taking the exploration boards that are mostly spaces as in two players, there's little chance of one player getting all the boards.



I dont think building houses is a viable strategy early and midgame in a 2P game. Just just get so little ROI when placing a tile on a house...

What you are forgetting is that only the very best strategies are viable in a 2P game. Drawing a parallel to Tzolkin, there's only 1 maybe 2 viable strategies in 2P game. The less strong strategies only get viable with more players since they then need to compete for the same spots.

However, I dont see "exploration boards" as a strategy. They are just as much a strategy as family growth is a strategy in agricola or caverne.

The only thing a player needs to care about in this game when placing tiles, is how many points they can expect to get when the game ends from placing said tile. Early game this means you want to increase your income and get bonuses, while lategame you want to cover minus points.

That said, for the first 5 or so rounds, you get a lot more points for placing a tile on an exploration board compared to your homeboard. I havent done the math, but after you get 2 income and have surrounded the ore bonus on the homeboard, you probably should stay away from your homeboard till the second last round.

Take for example bear island. To increase your income with 5 you need to cover 17 tiles, but if you want to go from 2 to 7 in income on your homeboard, you will need to cover something about 55 spots.

I might be wrong, but if one calculates points pr. tile covered on the exploration board, they should find that it is better to cover exploration boards early and midgame, while homeboard and houses gets better later.

If above is correct, then good players will experience higher interaction as the might end up taking less efficient actions to get starting player or grab exploration boards before they are turned over because they don't want to hand it over to the opponent.

I'll attempt to get 130 points using a house strategy, and prove it wrong, but I doubt it's better to use 8 tiles to get an oil bonus compared to whale meat on greenland even if you can use red and orange good.
 
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Perhaps it would feel less antagonistic to make a Strategy subforum thread discussing 2-player strategy in general, with no connection to specific people.

I would be sad if there truly becomes 1-2 straightforward strategies that are the only viable things for 2 players, but with the occupations I suspect it will be quite some time before I play the same way every game. Even if so, few people will hit on those the first couple of games.
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