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Subject: Titles and prologue benefit rss

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Christian K
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We just finished the prologue.
Is it correctly understood that it is only bad to have a higher royal title (because the player with the smallest title is the first player).

Is it correct that it is only bad to win the prologue (because it makes you last in the first game and gives no benefit)? This left me puzzled.

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Adam Strong-Morse
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Without any spoilers (we have also just finished the Prologue):

That's how it appears. There are references to "bonuses on title cards" on page 5 of the Rulebook, but as of the end of the Prologue, there are no bonuses on the title cards (and it's not clear whether those will provide bonuses from the bottom-up or from the top-down).

But! Winning the prologue implies getting to name an island. I'd gladly give up my first-turn advantage in Game 1 if I could have avoided being shut out of naming an island in the Prologue. So there is that.

Also, it's not clear that going first in Game 1 will strictly be an advantage--even if it leads to getting slightly more glory in Game 1, that may set you up to get less glory in the future (i.e. it's possible that 10 glory and Lord in Game 2 is actually better than 11 Glory and Princess in Game 2).
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Greg
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Yeah, I won the prologue and started last in the first regular game we played last night. We're playing a five player game and I finished in 3rd with 9 Glory.
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j n
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Basically, yes. Having a higher title is a disadvantage - you take your turn later, ties are broken in favor of other players.

This means that winning the Prologue is technically mildly bad for you. It's not really worse than any other mechanism for determining seating order though.

(If this is going to give your group problems, feel free to randomize titles at the start of game 1 - it's less thematic, but it won't cause problems).
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Larry Snyder
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We played a 5 player game and the person who had the highest title coming out of the prologue won game 1 as well. I had the lowest title (starting player) was tied for 3rd at 7 points. Overall, I don't think you need to be concerned about the order after the first game - and those rankings could have easily jumped around a bit just depending on one bad roll.
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Mike Alex
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We recognized going in that winning the prologue was actually a penalty and didn't want to encourage sandbagging, so we decided to randomly re-distribute titles for the first full game.
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Clinton Rice
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Pyrex042 wrote:

We recognized going in that winning the prologue was actually a penalty and didn't want to encourage sandbagging, so we decided to randomly re-distribute titles for the first full game.


Its a catch-up mechanic to allow those behind to not get so far behind they have no hope of winning.

Also, without going into specifics, if you continue to play this way once the title cards have effects, those effects will make no sense if you continue to play this way so you will probably need to continue to use the first set of title cards.

In short, if you want to play the game correctly, play it correctly. This rule exists for good reason.
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(PSN) SilentSniper_X_
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KoalaXav wrote:
Pyrex042 wrote:

We recognized going in that winning the prologue was actually a penalty and didn't want to encourage sandbagging, so we decided to randomly re-distribute titles for the first full game.


Its a catch-up mechanic to allow those behind to not get so far behind they have no hope of winning.

Also, without going into specifics, if you continue to play this way once the title cards have effects, those effects will make no sense if you continue to play this way so you will probably need to continue to use the first set of title cards.

In short, if you want to play the game correctly, play it correctly. This rule exists for good reason.


I could be wrong, but I think Mike meant he randomized before game 1 but not any other future games. This should have very minimal effects.
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j n
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KoalaXav wrote:
In short, if you want to play the game correctly, play it correctly. This rule exists for good reason.


I don't think anyone's objecting to using this rule once campaign glory is being scored.

Some people might have issues with sandbagging the prologue for advantage, and prefer to randomize for game 1. It won't cause any problems.
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Christian K
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Bummer, it seems weird to have no incentive to do well on the prologue (actually you have incentive to lose I guess).

Turn order seems quite big (althouh there is catc up after wix turns). The game is a race to a certain point total and also a race to the goods, exploring and raiding. Of course not a huge deal but it seems like a weird choice that if players trying to win the campaign, no one would ever score any points in the pologue.
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Clinton Rice
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Muemmelmann wrote:
Bummer, it seems weird to have no incentive to do well on the prologue (actually you have incentive to lose I guess).

Turn order seems quite big (althouh there is catc up after wix turns). The game is a race to a certain point total and also a race to the goods, exploring and raiding. Of course not a huge deal but it seems like a weird choice that if players trying to win the campaign, no one would ever score any points in the pologue.


Perhaps but nobody in my game was playing to lose. I won't go into the math of it, but trying to get less points than others is not an effective long-term strategy.

Even in our own world, nations and empires that grow quickly face tougher issues and attract more animosity from jealous rivals. But even when pressure, expectations and threats to your rule are multiplying by the day, in the wise words of Mel Brooks..."It's good to be the king!"
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Frank Pelkofer
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I think it's important to remember that your seat in the turn order is a pretty minor factor in winning the game.

The game outcome is going to be heavily influenced by dozens of dice rolls, arbitrary choices within the Captain's Booke, and introduction of new cards and rules that you can't possibly anticipate. It's extremely unlikely that getting to go first is going to offset all of that.

The incentive for playing hard in the prologue is to get a pain free run at the mechanics and a chance to name the islands. Passing up on this experience seems like it would hinder your campaign more than passing up going first.
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AJ Harris
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For what it's worth: I won the Prologue and the first game. Now, I don't expect to also win Game 2 (particularly with all the enmity I left out there, having to raid instead of buy since things were all snatched up before my turn), but it's worth noting it's at least possible.
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Clinton Rice
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much0gust0 wrote:
For what it's worth: I won the Prologue and the first game. Now, I don't expect to also win Game 2 (particularly with all the enmity I left out there, having to raid instead of buy since things were all snatched up before my turn), but it's worth noting it's at least possible.


You should have tried exploring instead. If everything was bought up before you had a chance, those islands must be ripe with undiscovered resources for the taking. And in our first two games (Pro and G1), explorations often resulted in two glory -- usually from free ship upgrades. Let the others fight over the small supply of cubes. Get your goods and your glory for free without enmity!
 
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j n
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KoalaXav wrote:
You should have tried exploring instead. If everything was bought up before you had a chance, those islands must be ripe with undiscovered resources for the taking. And in our first two games (Pro and G1), explorations often resulted in two glory -- usually from free ship upgrades. Let the others fight over the small supply of cubes. Get your goods and your glory for free without enmity!


That's what I wanted to do, but there were no +Explore advisors available and the easy targets had already been discovered*! Meanwhile, +Raid advisors were available, including the Renowned Soldier, which was well worth using.

*We're running with 5, which means going last can really limit your options in the first few games. I kept wanting to explore, but managed to do it only once in the entire prologue and first two games.
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Darren Nakamura
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Hahma wrote:
Yeah, I won the prologue and started last in the first regular game we played last night. We're playing a five player game and I finished in 3rd with 9 Glory.


That's exactly what happened to me! Went into Game 1 as the Princess, came out in third place with 9 Glory.
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Becq Starforged
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Dexter345 wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Yeah, I won the prologue and started last in the first regular game we played last night. We're playing a five player game and I finished in 3rd with 9 Glory.


That's exactly what happened to me! Went into Game 1 as the Princess, came out in third place with 9 Glory.

Consider yourselves lucky. I won the prologue handily (7 glory!), then got CRUSHED in Game 1 (3 glory!). And yes, I'm reporting those scores in the right order, unfortunately. My Game 2 improved some (9 glory). With luck, the current trend will continue upwards... (15 glory would be nice, especially since I'd get the benefits of winning yet likely still not go last, unless the current leader pulls a "me"...)
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Clinton Rice
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Dexter345 wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Yeah, I won the prologue and started last in the first regular game we played last night. We're playing a five player game and I finished in 3rd with 9 Glory.


That's exactly what happened to me! Went into Game 1 as the Princess, came out in third place with 9 Glory.


Exact same experience. Went into Game one the princess (Ivanka the Prosperous) and ended in third place with nine points. It's like the Alanis Morisette definition of ironic!
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Greg
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KoalaXav wrote:
Dexter345 wrote:
Hahma wrote:
Yeah, I won the prologue and started last in the first regular game we played last night. We're playing a five player game and I finished in 3rd with 9 Glory.


That's exactly what happened to me! Went into Game 1 as the Princess, came out in third place with 9 Glory.


Exact same experience. Went into Game one the princess (Ivanka the Prosperous) and ended in third place with nine points. It's like the Alanis Morisette definition of ironic!


http://time.com/4547396/justin-timberlake-jimmy-fallon-ironi...
 
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Ian Liddle
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I feel like going last is actually a massive benefit early in the campaign. (at least with 3 players, which is what we have)

As you only check for victory at the end of the round, going last allows you to close the game down when the other players least expect it, and any advantage they'd have by going first is mostly mitigated by completing the round, ensuring everyone has the same number of turns.

As ships get upgraded game-to-game, resources become scarce for the later players, so it does become less advantageous.
 
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David desJardins
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razordaze wrote:
I feel like going last is actually a massive benefit early in the campaign. (at least with 3 players, which is what we have)


It's an advantage for winning the individual game, but I'm not convinced that's important or even valuable. It's a disadvantage in the race for the milestones, which is probably more important.
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Christian K
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Can you help me understand what is good about going last? I don't see any advantage to it.
 
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David desJardins
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Muemmelmann wrote:
Can you help me understand what is good about going last? I don't see any advantage to it.


As Ian said, if you go early in the round and cross the VP threshold, other players could well knock you down (sink your ships, steal your treasures, etc.) before you can win. If you go last they can't do that.
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Christian K
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ah ok, thanks. I havnt learned the rules for attacking yet since it is not in the prologue so this might be the source of my confusion.
 
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Clinton Rice
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Muemmelmann wrote:
ah ok, thanks. I havnt learned the rules for attacking yet since it is not in the prologue so this might be the source of my confusion.


Without going into spoilers, there are several sources of glory that can be taken away after you've gained them: ship upgrades, structures, treasures, and other sources (such as some advisers). If you lose these for any reason -- either because your ship sinks, or as the result of a province raid, you lose the associated glory.

You check for winners at the end of a round. So if a player hits the glory target but two players have not yet acted that round, they have the opportunity to reduce his glory below the threshold. In Game One after the prologue, this would necessitate a province raid. Later on, ship raids become an option.

If the leader's glory total is brought below the threshold and nobody else reaches the target, another round begins. But if the last player reaches the glory target, nobody has a chance to interfere before the round ends and the game is over.
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