Recommend
1 
 Thumb up
 Hide
30 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

SeaFall» Forums » Rules

Subject: [Spoiler] Rule 4 rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Ryan Feathers
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Hello. I've got a rule question, and I think it's Rule 4. I don't have the rulebook in front of me right now, so I am very sorry if I don't have the correct number. I looked up the SeaFall PDF and believe that the rule sticker I'm asking about when to Rule 4 though...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Any the question is in regard to dangerous waters and the sail endeavor. We had a disagreement about how that would work with both of your ships. Suppose you sail both ships into the same dangerous waters space. Obviously you would pick a flagship and the other would be a support ship. If you succeed, then both your ships are safe and all is good.

Our disagreement came from what would happen if you failed and your ship sank? For other endeavors that would mean you failed the endeavor. So what implications does that have for the Sail Endeavor? Does that mean your other ship is also destroyed (doubtful)? Or is your support ship fine to keep doing whatever it was doing? Or is it now forced to stay in that space?

We were just curious. The player who was thinking about doing that just settled on something else, as we weren't sure how that would resolve.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I don't have my book/rule in front of me right now, but my recollection is:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The consequence of failing the endeavor is that your ships must stop moving. This is true whether or not the flagship sinks.


EDIT: My recollection is that this is stated in the first sentence of the rule, but I could be mistaken.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Feathers
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lactamaeon wrote:
I don't have my book/rule in front of me right now, but my recollection is:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The consequence of failing the endeavor is that your ships must stop moving. This is true whether or not the flagship sinks.


Alright. That's what I figured was the correct answer but for some reason after a several hour long game it was a real disagreement at our table.

So following up then, if I was moving to Island A:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
which has a dangerous waters on it, this is a way to guarantee a ship gets in. That's what the player wanted to do--he was going to sail both ships in and have the on sink while the other one safely made it. It turns out he probably was allowed to do this--it just felt unthematic (and it probably is), but it would seem to be the correct ruling.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
I would say yes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becq Starforged
United States
Cerritos
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
lactamaeon wrote:
I don't have my book/rule in front of me right now, but my recollection is:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
The consequence of failing the endeavor is that your ships must stop moving. This is true whether or not the flagship sinks.


EDIT: My recollection is that this is stated in the first sentence of the rule, but I could be mistaken.

The rule says
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"If you don't sink as a result of the endeavor, you may continue moving." Note that the success criteria is different than other endeavors in that you don't need any successes in order to succeed, you only need to not sink. There is also no benefit for success (except to continue moving); "You do not gain glory for passing a Dangerous Waters check."

But yes, I think the example you gave would be valid.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Thanks, Becq.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clinton Rice
United States
Chino
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
lactamaeon wrote:
I would say yes.


I think your previous answer made more sense when you said both ships stop moving. If the flagship sinks with one ship acting as support, your sail action is over and the supporting ship is not free to move.

Right?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Feathers
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks all for clarifying.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I suppose it should have been apparent, but I would have preferred if they had just flat out also laid out the consequences of failure. As is it's just inferred that you are unable to move but can continue doing whatever else. Ah well. We should have been able to get that but it's nice to get a quick confirmation. Thanks all.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Feathers
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KoalaXav wrote:
lactamaeon wrote:
I would say yes.


I think your previous answer made more sense when you said both ships stop moving. If the endeavor is failed with one ship acting as support, your sail action is over and the supporting ship is not free to move.

Right?


Yes this is correct. But I was bringing up a spoiler about Island A:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Which has a dangerous waters of three on it. So you move to the space with the island. If you have both ships, even if the one sinks and you fail the sail endeavor, your support ship stops moving but is already at the island.

This was the specific situation that had made us question the rule since it seemed like it didn't make thematic sense but ah well.

Apparently if you are sailing into a dangerous patch of sea, just make sure you have another ship and a suicidal captain who is willing to sink his ship for you--your other boat will be sure to make it safely!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Something we have been forgetting here (a general rule of endeavors from p. 10):

"If you did not roll a single success, or if your ship sank as a
result of taking damage, the endeavor is a failure and your
turn ends immediately."

(This doesn't change the Island A answer).
3 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clinton Rice
United States
Chino
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
Ranior wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
lactamaeon wrote:
I would say yes.


I think your previous answer made more sense when you said both ships stop moving. If the endeavor is failed with one ship acting as support, your sail action is over and the supporting ship is not free to move.

Right?


Yes this is correct. But I was bringing up a spoiler about Island A:

Spoiler (click to reveal)
Which has a dangerous waters of three on it. So you move to the space with the island. If you have both ships, even if the one sinks and you fail the sail endeavor, your support ship stops moving but is already at the island.

This was the specific situation that had made us question the rule since it seemed like it didn't make thematic sense but ah well.

Apparently if you are sailing into a dangerous patch of sea, just make sure you have another ship and a suicidal captain who is willing to sink his ship for you--your other boat will be sure to make it safely!


Ah yes, that makes more sense. Thank you.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Becq Starforged
United States
Cerritos
California
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
lactamaeon wrote:
Something we have been forgetting here (a general rule of endeavors from p. 10):

"If you did not roll a single success, or if your ship sank as a
result of taking damage, the endeavor is a failure and your
turn ends immediately."

(This doesn't change the Island A answer).

I think rule 4 overrides that rule, actually. Unlike the endeavor rules in the core rules, it establishes that
Spoiler (click to reveal)
1) the success criteria are different (failure is determined only by the ship sinking)
2) the results are different (movement is impacted and glory is not awarded)
Given that it specifies an independent success criteria and consequences of failure, I'm not convinced that we're meant to "insert in" the core endeavor rules. Especially for the success criteria, which seems clear.

JR has also noted that (prologue-ish Captain's Booke spoiler)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
certain rolls in the Captain's Booke are called "endeavors" but do not follow the normal endeavor rules, and are used only to establish a consequence.

My feel is that this is one of those cases. But I'll grant that it's far from clear.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
That makes sense.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Ranior wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Apparently if you are sailing into a dangerous patch of sea, just make sure you have another ship and a suicidal captain who is willing to sink his ship for you--your other boat will be sure to make it safely!


Spoiler (click to reveal)
This isn't much different from getting your valuable goods home by putting another empty ship with them, and making the empty ship the flagship if an enemy province attacks you, so they can sink the empty ship but they can't affect or plunder the loaded ship.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Feathers
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Good point David.

Thanks all for the help in resolving this and making things clear. Should be well set for our next game now after getting refreshed on all the rules.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clinton Rice
United States
Chino
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
Ranior wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Apparently if you are sailing into a dangerous patch of sea, just make sure you have another ship and a suicidal captain who is willing to sink his ship for you--your other boat will be sure to make it safely!


Spoiler (click to reveal)
This isn't much different from getting your valuable goods home by putting another empty ship with them, and making the empty ship the flagship if an enemy province attacks you, so they can sink the empty ship but they can't affect or plunder the loaded ship.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
I havent played with ship raiding but I got a completely different interpretation of this rule than you did. The defender pucks the flagship. I took this to mean that the defender chooses which of the attacker's ships is leading the attack and which supporting, if both are present. But I read this that the attacker still chooses which ship they are attacking. How could the attacking ship decide to attack ship A and fire at ship B instead?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KoalaXav wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I havent played with ship raiding but I got a completely different interpretation of this rule than you did. The defender pucks the flagship. I took this to mean that the defender chooses which of the attacker's ships is leading the attack and which supporting, if both are present. But I read this that the attacker still chooses which ship they are attacking. How could the attacking ship decide to attack ship A and fire at ship B instead?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
You're not the only one who misread this rule, it should be an FAQ. But the very next paragraph says, "If you succeed in the raid, you may apply 1 damage to the defending flagship." It's clear, the attacker is choosing their own flagship and the defender is choosing their own flagship. It's also been stated by the developer. Also, really, it's not that surprising that if you attack a fleet the defender can decide which ship engages in battle and which hangs back in a safer supporting role.
2 
 Thumb up
0.05
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clinton Rice
United States
Chino
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
I havent played with ship raiding but I got a completely different interpretation of this rule than you did. The defender pucks the flagship. I took this to mean that the defender chooses which of the attacker's ships is leading the attack and which supporting, if both are present. But I read this that the attacker still chooses which ship they are attacking. How could the attacking ship decide to attack ship A and fire at ship B instead?


Spoiler (click to reveal)
You're not the only one who misread this rule, it should be an FAQ. But the very next paragraph says, "If you succeed in the raid, you may apply 1 damage to the defending flagship." It's clear, the attacker is choosing their own flagship and the defender is choosing their own flagship. It's also been stated by the developer. Also, really, it's not that surprising that if you attack a fleet the defender can decide which ship engages in battle and which hangs back in a safer supporting role.


Okay. If the developer says it, the developer says it. But it's another ruling that "feels" wrong. I wish there weren't so many of these. I guess my ships are manned by imperial stormtroopers that can't shoot straight. "Why are you firing at that corsair? I said fire at the galleon!"

"We dont know, captain! We can't help it. Some outside influence is forcing us!"
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
KoalaXav wrote:
Okay. If the developer says it, the developer says it. But it's another ruling that "feels" wrong. I wish there weren't so many of these. I guess my ships are manned by imperial stormtroopers that can't shoot straight. "Why are you firing at that corsair? I said fire at the galleon!"

"We dont know, captain! We can't help it. Some outside influence is forcing us!"


No, "Because the corsair is sailing across our path and engaging us, while the galleon takes advantage of that cover to make its escape."
4 
 Thumb up
0.02
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clinton Rice
United States
Chino
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
DaviddesJ wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
Okay. If the developer says it, the developer says it. But it's another ruling that "feels" wrong. I wish there weren't so many of these. I guess my ships are manned by imperial stormtroopers that can't shoot straight. "Why are you firing at that corsair? I said fire at the galleon!"

"We dont know, captain! We can't help it. Some outside influence is forcing us!"


No, "Because the corsair is sailing across our path and engaging us, while the galleon takes advantage of that cover to make its escape."


You make a compelling case (in both threads) but I still feel that this is one of those situations where ambiguous wording has created two completely contrary interpretations that can both be justified. I will accept your version of the rule, even though I had no issue with my read until I saw your post in this thread (about how easy it is to cheese your interpretation of the rule and exploit it unfairly).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David desJardins
United States
Burlingame
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm not going to deny that the rule seems somewhat arbitrary and frustrating. Pirate raids are a lot less attractive since players can defend their loaded ships with their unloaded ships. Still, there's a plausible way to interpret this in reality, and it serves as an incentive for players who might be raided not to load all of their ships fully and then leave the fleet exposed and vulnerable.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
j n
United States
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
KoalaXav wrote:
You make a compelling case (in both threads) but I still feel that this is one of those situations where ambiguous wording has created two completely contrary interpretations that can both be justified. I will accept your version of the rule, even though I had no issue with my read until I saw your post in this thread (about how easy it is to cheese your interpretation of the rule and exploit it unfairly).


I'm not sure why this is cheesy or exploitative. My wife is already struggling with a decision for next game

Spoiler (click to reveal)
If she splits her ships, she can buy 4 of the same kind of good on turn 1 to make a fast play for the "sell 4 of one type" milestone. But if she keeps the ships together, she can get 3 goods early and keep them secure.


It makes sense that keeping your ships together keeps them safer while also limiting your options/efficiency.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Feathers
United States
Madison
Wisconsin
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree that for many of these the rules are not as crystal clear as I would like. More examples perhaps would have been cool or something. Ah well, things are getting resolved.

I agree some of these rules don't necessarily mesh the best with what I'd want thematically or even with what I'd want them to be, but ultimately that is most games. Sometimes mechanics have to trump theme or what I'd want in order to make the game a good experience. If anything I'm thankful that you can choose your own flagship when defending from an attack since I'm not a huge fan of direct conflict games and I'd think that if attackers could choose the game would be more friendly towards ship v ship raids which I wouldn't like.

Ultimately I'm just happy there is a good community here that can quickly handle and deal with any of these rule disputes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
JR Honeycutt
United States
Texas
flag msg tools
designer
publisher
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
lactamaeon wrote:
KoalaXav wrote:
You make a compelling case (in both threads) but I still feel that this is one of those situations where ambiguous wording has created two completely contrary interpretations that can both be justified. I will accept your version of the rule, even though I had no issue with my read until I saw your post in this thread (about how easy it is to cheese your interpretation of the rule and exploit it unfairly).


I'm not sure why this is cheesy or exploitative. My wife is already struggling with a decision for next game

Spoiler (click to reveal)
If she splits her ships, she can buy 4 of the same kind of good on turn 1 to make a fast play for the "sell 4 of one type" milestone. But if she keeps the ships together, she can get 3 goods early and keep them secure.


It makes sense that keeping your ships together keeps them safer while also limiting your options/efficiency.


I recommend against this.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Albert
Canada
Ottawa
Ontario
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Just to clarify regarding rule 4...
Spoiler (click to reveal)

If you move into a space with Dangerous Waters, attempt a SAIL endeavor against the defense of the space. If you don't sink as a result of this endeavor, you may continue moving. If your ships sailed together into the space, you only have to pass the Dangerous Waters check once, using the other ship as a support ship. You do not gain glory for passing a Dangerous Waters check.


I assume you roll as many dice based on the sail value of our ship?
Can fortune tokens be spent during this check?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.