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A Feast for Odin» Forums » Rules

Subject: Punchcutter rss

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Thomas Leitner
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I'm a little confused as to how this occupation card works. It seems to provide silver income to the player when ore or silver is removed from a mountain strip during step 11.

In practice, this just seemed far to powerful in the one game I've seen it played. It provided a player with at least 11 silver over the course of the game.

The card itself is worth a VP at the end of the game, making this the single most powerful occupation I've seen so far.

My instincts tell me the card can't work this way. Has anyone encountered this card yet?
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I asked about it in another thread but there has not been an official ruling yet.

In particular, the card says "1 ore and 2 silver" instead of "1 ore or 2 silver", and I wonder about the intent.

Imagine there are 4 mountain strips out. Three have ore as their leftmost resource, and one has 2 silver. Does the Punchcutter player earn 3 silver + 2 silver = 5 silver?
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Jeff Kayati
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Card #173 B Punchcutter

"Each time 1 ore AND 2 silver......." emphasis mine.

Your example says "or", so possibly this only triggers off a combo of one ore and two silver. A not very frequent occurrence.
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jkayati wrote:
Card #173 B Punchcutter

"Each time 1 ore AND 2 silver......." emphasis mine.

Your example says "or", so possibly this only triggers off a combo of one ore and two silver. A not very frequent occurrence.

However, the appendix also says, "you receive 1 silver and 2 silver, respectively".

Why would it not say "you receive 3 silver if at least 1 ore AND at least 2 silver are removed from mountain strips" if that is the intent?
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Jeff Kayati
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GAFBlizzard wrote:
jkayati wrote:
Card #173 B Punchcutter

"Each time 1 ore AND 2 silver......." emphasis mine.

Your example says "or", so possibly this only triggers off a combo of one ore and two silver. A not very frequent occurrence.

However, the appendix also says, "you receive 1 silver and 2 silver, respectively".

Why would it not say "you receive 3 silver if at least 1 ore AND at least 2 silver are removed from mountain strips" if that is the intent?


Spotty translation? Lack of clarity?

Using or creates an overly powerful card, according to the OP. Using and solves that problem. I imagine we will hear soon enough.
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Rob van Dalen
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jkayati wrote:
Spotty translation? Lack of clarity?


Spotty translation, I think. The german rules state "Jedesmal wenn in einer Runde in der Phase „Bergstreifen“ (Phase 11) 1 Erz bzw. 2 Silber von einem Bergstreifen zurück in den allgemeinen Vorrat gelangen, erhältst du 1 Silber bzw. 2 Silber".

In my basic understanding of german, this would translate to "Each time 1 ore or 2 silver gets removed from a mountain strip during the Mountain Strips phase (phase 11), you receive 1 silver or 2 silver, respectively." (emphasis is mine)

bzw. or in full 'beziehungsweise' translates to 'or' or 'respectively'.

I hope that clarifies
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Dok Indigo
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Rob0Rider wrote:
jkayati wrote:
Spotty translation? Lack of clarity?


Spotty translation, I think. The german rules state "Jedesmal wenn in einer Runde in der Phase „Bergstreifen“ (Phase 11) 1 Erz bzw. 2 Silber von einem Bergstreifen zurück in den allgemeinen Vorrat gelangen, erhältst du 1 Silber bzw. 2 Silber".

In my basic understanding of german, this would translate to "Each time 1 ore or 2 silver gets removed from a mountain strip during the Mountain Strips phase (phase 11), you receive 1 silver or 2 silver, respectively." (emphasis is mine)

bzw. or in full 'beziehungsweise' translates to 'or' or 'respectively'.

I hope that clarifies


This is correct. Note that the German appendix also reads "ggf. mehrmals in dieser Phase". Which means: eventually more than once in this phase.

I do not find this card to strong. A clever opponent can easily empty ore and silver from the mountain strips, reducing the benefit that the player with the punchcutter receives.
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Lucas Hedgren
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Count me in the "works any time either ore or silver is removed from a strip during phase 11" camp. Also put me in the "not too strong" camp.

Also, remember that there was a clarification about the mountain strip phase here: https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1647297/updating-mounta...

This means that if the requirement were that both ore AND silver were removed, they would have to be from 2 different strips, which would be even rarer.
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There's a shape called "The Golden Rectangle". Have you heard of it?
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It refers to a rectangle that's approximately contstructed in the ratio of 9 to 16. The golden rectangle has several characteristics. Let's say I create a square within this shape. Then, this smaller rectangle that I just created will also be a
badge
golden rectangle. I make another square within that and the leftover is another golden rectangle. And I make a few more, and when I connect all the central points of these shapes it creates a spiral that continues forever. This is the "Golden Spin".
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Yes, even if they don't deliberately go out of your way to stop you, your opponents are making a mistake if they just leave points lying around on the mountain strip. The "take two goods from one strip" for an ore and 2 silver is a 3 point action for one worker -- even more if you then use the silver/ore for other things (activating income/bonuses, ships, crafting).

To get anything out of this card you'll need to engineer it yourself near the end of the round or hope your opponents don't have the workers to spare.
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Thomas Leitner
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It seems, then, that card works as worded.

The problem I have with it is two-fold. For one thing, it's a passive effect that can go off every single turn. The player has to do absolutely nothing to net free money, which is pretty unusual from all of the other occupations I've seen so far.

Second, while it's true that others can play around the effect by gaming the mountain strips, this is often impractical and inefficient for them.

It's the only occupation I've seen which has potential effect of changing the behavior of everyone but the person who played it.

Now, I haven't seen a lot of the other occupations, so maybe there are other similar ones. However, I found Punchcutter really affected this particular game in a negative way to the point I'm likely to just remove it from the deck permanently. That may be an overreaction given that the particular set of circumstances is unlikely to occur again. We'll see.

Thanks to everyone for their input.
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MDJD wrote:
Now, I haven't seen a lot of the other occupations, so maybe there are other similar ones. However, I found Punchcutter really affected this particular game in a negative way to the point I'm likely to just remove it from the deck permanently. That may be an overreaction given that the particular set of circumstances is unlikely to occur again. We'll see.

Thanks to everyone for their input.

It does sound like it made the game more interactive in some sense, at least for the other players. Side note, if you haven't encountered them, there are also some card(s) that literally change the rules for one particular player, which seems pretty big. However, they may not have the same asymmetric impact you talk about.

Naturally, you can houserule out any cards you like and there are fortunately 100+ other occupations, at least.
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There's a shape called "The Golden Rectangle". Have you heard of it?
United States
Little Canada
Minnesota
flag msg tools
It refers to a rectangle that's approximately contstructed in the ratio of 9 to 16. The golden rectangle has several characteristics. Let's say I create a square within this shape. Then, this smaller rectangle that I just created will also be a
badge
golden rectangle. I make another square within that and the leftover is another golden rectangle. And I make a few more, and when I connect all the central points of these shapes it creates a spiral that continues forever. This is the "Golden Spin".
mbmbmbmbmb
MDJD wrote:
The player has to do absolutely nothing to net free money, which is pretty unusual from all of the other occupations I've seen so far.

Second, while it's true that others can play around the effect by gaming the mountain strips, this is often impractical and inefficient for them.

It's the only occupation I've seen which has potential effect of changing the behavior of everyone but the person who played it.


It's not really changing their behavior when they should be making every effort to grab coins and ore from the strips in the first place.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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MDJD wrote:
It seems, then, that card works as worded.

The problem I have with it is two-fold. For one thing, it's a passive effect that can go off every single turn. The player has to do absolutely nothing to net free money, which is pretty unusual from all of the other occupations I've seen so far.

Second, while it's true that others can play around the effect by gaming the mountain strips, this is often impractical and inefficient for them.

It's the only occupation I've seen which has potential effect of changing the behavior of everyone but the person who played it.

Now, I haven't seen a lot of the other occupations, so maybe there are other similar ones. However, I found Punchcutter really affected this particular game in a negative way to the point I'm likely to just remove it from the deck permanently. That may be an overreaction given that the particular set of circumstances is unlikely to occur again. We'll see.

Thanks to everyone for their input.


Nobody does this though and with the clarification that silver isn't automatically removed, I don't know that I'd even bother to play it.
 
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
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MDJD wrote:
It seems, then, that card works as worded.

The problem I have with it is two-fold. For one thing, it's a passive effect that can go off every single turn. The player has to do absolutely nothing to net free money, which is pretty unusual from all of the other occupations I've seen so far.

Second, while it's true that others can play around the effect by gaming the mountain strips, this is often impractical and inefficient for them.

It's the only occupation I've seen which has potential effect of changing the behavior of everyone but the person who played it.

Now, I haven't seen a lot of the other occupations, so maybe there are other similar ones. However, I found Punchcutter really affected this particular game in a negative way to the point I'm likely to just remove it from the deck permanently. That may be an overreaction given that the particular set of circumstances is unlikely to occur again. We'll see.

Thanks to everyone for their input.


Also go read the FAQ, I think you'll find that with the new interpretation this isn't much.
 
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jschlickbernd wrote:
Nobody does this though and with the clarification that silver isn't automatically removed, I don't know that I'd even bother to play it.

Just to be super clear, silver DOES get automatically removed if it is the leftmost thing on a mountain strip.

The clarification, for those who haven't read it, means silver doesn't get removed WITH another mountain tile resource.
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Frank Heeren
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The strength of the punchcutter depends on the number of players in the game. In a 4 player game it is less likely that there will be ore or silver removed from a mountain strip than in a 2 player game...
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