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Subject: Rule Clarification - Bonus from the regions when buying a wine tile rss

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Nando The Rebel
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Hi guys, Sorry if this has been already asked or if it is clear in the rulebook (I could not find it anywhere)...

When you buy a vineyard, the bonus that you get (free cellar, free farmer etc) must go to the region from where you bought the vineyard?

Example, I buy a vineyard from the region that gives me a free cellar (not sure which one is it at the moment, but lets say it is region 6). Can I put the free Cellar in a place that is producing wine from region 3?

Another question, what happens after I use the Porto tokens wine tokens? Do they go back to the supply or are discarded from the game?

Thanks in advance and again, sorry is the question is stupid or has been answered somewhere else..
 
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Nicola Bocchetta
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Yes. The Winery must go on the Lisboa vineyard. It's in the Refernce Book, p. 12 (emphasis added):

Quote:
You build a free Winery in your Lisboa Estate. (No additional renown cube for the free winery). If you choose Lisboa as your ‘Initial Vineyard’
immediately receive 1 Winery and 1 Wine tile tile valued 3.
 
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Mike Holzman
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Hi,

Yes, the bonus that you get goes into the region that you bought the vineyard. Note that you can re-arrange the farmers and the enologists before producing a new wine.

I am not sure about the Porto tokens, as there are only 6 of the total 8 that could potentially be had. I assume they are out of the game as a limited resource, but I am not sure.

Edit: ninja
 
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Nicola Bocchetta
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The same is true for regions 4 (free Cellar), and 5 (free Farmer).

About Porto tiles: as Porto tiles are "part" of the wine, and wine tiles are not limited (see p. 4 of the Reference Book), I think they should be unlimited too.
 
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Michael Cabral
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I own the original edition of Vinhos (2010).

I took a look in the Deluxe verion's game manual and for some reason it omits information of the bonus. The information can be found in the Reference Manual

The vineyard bonus for the farmer, cellar or winery is put directly onto the estate and cannot be used for another estate (you have 5 estates in the Deluxe version.)

The second Vineyard in an Estate never doubles any of the bonuses listed in the Reference Manual/Vineyard tile. You can only put one renown cube if available for buying that vineyard (not a second renown cube for the bonus cellar, winery, etc.) This is true for every region, in all versions of the game.

The Porto chits go back to the Douro region.

I hope that helps.
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Michael Cabral
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Faso74it wrote:
The same is true for regions 4 (free Cellar), and 5 (free Farmer).

About Porto tiles: as Porto tiles are "part" of the wine, and wine tiles are not limited (see p. 4 of the Reference Book), I think they should be unlimited too.


That is incorrect according to Page 8 of the Reference Manual.

Quote:
All components are limited to the quantity provided and can therefore run out during the game.
The only exceptions are:
Bagos Notes: In the unlikely event that the common supply runs out of cash, keep track on paper or by other means.
Wine tiles: In the unlikely event that the common supply runs out of a certain value of Wine tiles, simply stack multiple Wine tiles
that total the same number.


There are 8 opportunities to create Porto wines in the game (8 4 vineyards). If Porto tiles are available and you place the Douro vineyard in a new estate (no doubling of bonus on the same estate with two of the same region and wine colour). There are only 6 Porto tiles. This is to create demand for the Porto tiles and to use them strategically.

This can happen with one or more players. It is inefficient for one player but can be done with Manager's bonus or if there is a Magnate bonus that allows you to purchase a vineyard.

Example 1 where all 4 players select the Douro vineyards during initial setup in this playing order: Red, Blue, Yellow, Purple choose Douro region. Red is first and receives 2 Porto tiles and decides to use one of them to create the first wine at quality 5 (2 vineyard + 3 Porto bonus). There are 5 Porto tiles in the region now. Blue does the same and makes a Porto wine. There are 4 Porto tiles left so that Yellow and Purple can both produce 2 Porto wines when they want. If at any point there was less than 2 tiles when the vineyard is bought no Porto wines can be produced from that vineyard.

The Porto tiles can sit next to your player board on top of the Douro region vineyard tile for the entire game (very bad play) or you can elect to increase the initial quality of the wine by +3 during the wine production phase(really useful for wine fairs or exports and for also mitigating bad weather effects.)
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mfl134
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the one exception is when you get a free farmer.
 
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mfl134
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Cabralicus wrote:
Faso74it wrote:
The same is true for regions 4 (free Cellar), and 5 (free Farmer).

About Porto tiles: as Porto tiles are "part" of the wine, and wine tiles are not limited (see p. 4 of the Reference Book), I think they should be unlimited too.


That is incorrect according to Page 8 of the Reference Manual.

Quote:
All components are limited to the quantity provided and can therefore run out during the game.
The only exceptions are:
Bagos Notes: In the unlikely event that the common supply runs out of cash, keep track on paper or by other means.
Wine tiles: In the unlikely event that the common supply runs out of a certain value of Wine tiles, simply stack multiple Wine tiles
that total the same number.


There are 8 opportunities to create Porto wines (8 vineyards) and only if you place the Douro vineyard in a new estate (no doubling of bonus on the same estate with two of the same vineyard region and wine colour) there are only 6 Porto tiles. This is to create demand for the Porto tiles and to use them strategically.

The Porto tiles can sit next to your player board for the entire game (very bad play) or you can elect to increase the initial quality of the wine by +3 during the wine production phase(really useful for wine fairs or exports and for also mitigating bad weather effects.)


Note that porto tiles should remain on the estate that obtained them. In the event that you end up with multiple douro estates, the porto tiles cannot be exchanged between them.
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James J

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mfl134 wrote:
the one exception is when you get a free farmer.


I was going to mention this, too.

As Mike pointed out above, you can move the Ribatejo farmer just before the Production phase to any vineyard in any estate. That is clear.

However, what about buying a second Ribatejo vineyard and adding it to an existing Ribatejo estate? I can't find a reference in the rules that would prohibit you from getting a second farmer in that estate.

Yes, bonus Wineries and Cellars naturally will not give you a second bonus because they must go in the estate they belong to and there physically will not be room for them (limit of one cellar and only 3 spaces in the estate). But there is room for a farmer.

Also, good questions about the Porto tiles. I'm still unclear on where they go when spent.
 
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Nicola Bocchetta
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japester1 wrote:
However, what about buying a second Ribatejo vineyard and adding it to an existing Ribatejo estate? I can't find a reference in the rules that would prohibit you from getting a second farmer in that estate.


The second vineyard doesn't give you any bonus:

Quote:
Note: The second Vineyard in an Estate never doubles any of the bonuses listed above. This is true for every region, in all versions of the game.
 
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Michael Cabral
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mfl134 wrote:
the one exception is when you get a free farmer.


Ah, thanks for the clarification. Those dang new-fangled farmers. Back in my day we only relied on the weather, wineries and enologists to make our wine! I had to walk 30 km (each way!) to the bank and sometimes spend 1,000 Bagos just to get access to my own money!
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James J

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Faso74it wrote:

The second vineyard doesn't give you any bonus:

Quote:
Note: The second Vineyard in an Estate never doubles any of the bonuses listed above. This is true for every region, in all versions of the game.


Duh. I missed that.

The quote above is from the very bottom of the last page of the Reference Book.

Thanks!
 
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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Cabralicus wrote:
There are 8 opportunities to create Porto wines (8 vineyards) and only if you place the Douro vineyard in a new estate


Just wanted to clarify for any future readers that might be confused. There are only 4 vineyards (not 8) and each one placed in a new estate will provide 2 porto tiles which yields the 8 opportunities to make porto wine total.
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Michael Cabral
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Oops! I have made corrections to my original post up top. And also included an example of a possible scenario of all 8 wines being made.
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James J

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Cabralicus wrote:

Example 1 where all 4 players select the Douro vineyards during initial setup in this playing order: Red, Blue, Yellow, Purple choose Douro region. Red is first and receives 2 Porto tiles and decides to use one of them to create the first wine at quality 5 (2 vineyard + 3 Porto bonus). There are 5 Porto tiles in the region now. Blue does the same and makes a Porto wine. There are 4 Porto tiles left so that Yellow and Purple can both produce 2 Porto wines when they want. If at any point there was less than 2 tiles when the vineyard is bought no Porto wines can be produced from that vineyard.


I'm still a little confused by this. Am I correct in saying that we all agree that Porto tiles (or the upgraded Porto bottles) go back to the region vinyard after being used to produce a Porto wine? That seems to track with Cabralicus' example up above.

But I don't get the final statement about how no Porto tiles will be given if a Douro vineyard is purchased and there are less than two Porto tiles left. If there was one tile left on the region, and an unpurchased vineyard, why not give the purchaser the one available tile? Like any other action, I assume you complete as much of it as you can, and that would mean giving the new owner "up to two" Porto tiles.

How about the same example up above where all four players choose Douro as their initial vineyard. Except none of the first three players decide to produce a Porto wine right away. So when Purple chooses the vineyard, there are zero Porto tiles. Does that mean they can never produce a Porto wine? I tend to think so since vineyard bonuses are only given when first purchasing the vineyard. Thoughts?
 
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Michael Cabral
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Correct. In the wine production phase if any player produces a Porto wine chit is returned to the Douro region.

Again correct. If someone buys a vineyard in the Douro region they are allowed to take up to 2 Porto tiles if available. If only one is available they take that one Porto chit. If no Porto chits are available they get nothing but the vineyard. In all cases a Region Renown Cube (if available) is placed once the vineyard is bought.

Correct again! If all four players choose the Douro region as their initial vineyard. Red, Blue and Yellow would each get 2 Porto chits and would receive a 2 quality wine (red or white), Purple would not get any chits as none are available when he bought it and will never be able to produce a Porto wine because there are no Douro region vineyards (he bought the last one when no chits were available.) Purple will only be able to produce a regular white or red wine. There will be 4 Region Renown Cubes in the Douro region at the start of this particular game.

Now I can understand that it is difficult to write rules for a Rule Book. Every word must be meticulously written.
 
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Kai Huang
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mfl134 wrote:

Note that porto tiles should remain on the estate that obtained them. In the event that you end up with multiple douro estates, the porto tiles cannot be exchanged between them.


Where does it say that in the rules? All I see from the Reference book is "You can spend a Porto tile during Production to increase a Douro (and only Douro) Wine's quality". It does not say that you are limited to using a Porto tile only in the particular estate where you got the Porto tile.
 
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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kaihuang wrote:
mfl134 wrote:

Note that porto tiles should remain on the estate that obtained them. In the event that you end up with multiple douro estates, the porto tiles cannot be exchanged between them.


Where does it say that in the rules? All I see from the Reference book is "You can spend a Porto tile during Production to increase a Douro (and only Douro) Wine's quality". It does not say that you are limited to using a Porto tile only in the particular estate where you got the Porto tile.


Here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/6110690#6110690
 
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Kai Huang
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NuMystic wrote:
kaihuang wrote:

Where does it say that in the rules? All I see from the Reference book is "You can spend a Porto tile during Production to increase a Douro (and only Douro) Wine's quality". It does not say that you are limited to using a Porto tile only in the particular estate where you got the Porto tile.


Here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/6110690#6110690


Sorry, that's too much of a stretch.
1. That message is from 2011 and applies to the 2010 game, not the 2016 game.
2. Note that Vital said "Right" only in response to "Porto tiles should be tied to vinyards". He did not say he was going to issue an errata. (In other words, while he may regret that the rulebook says differently, he feels it's not a big deal either way and elects to just leave it be.)
3. Furthermore, in preparing the 2016 game, he and/or his rulebook writer would have gone through the 2010 forum threads on rules questions, and made sure to make necessary changes in the 2016 rulebook. Since they still didn't change this rule when writing the new 2016 rulebook, it's further evidence that he elects to just leave it be.
4. If it were true that Porto tiles should be tied to a specific vineyard, then by the same theory, Farmers that come with Ribatejo should be tied to a specific vineyard also (but, as far as I know, those Farmers can freely move).

Actually, here's a possibility: Maybe in preparing the 2016 rulebook, he did think about adding a sentence about Porto tiles being tied to a vineyard. But then for consistency, he figured he would have to make Ribatejo Farmers be tied to a vineyard also. But for two reasons, he didn't want to do that: (a) there's no good way to mark a Farmer in a Ribatejo estate as being tied or not tied; (b) it would be slavery!
 
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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kaihuang wrote:
NuMystic wrote:
kaihuang wrote:

Where does it say that in the rules? All I see from the Reference book is "You can spend a Porto tile during Production to increase a Douro (and only Douro) Wine's quality". It does not say that you are limited to using a Porto tile only in the particular estate where you got the Porto tile.


Here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/6110690#6110690


Sorry, that's too much of a stretch.
1. That message is from 2011 and applies to the 2010 game, not the 2016 game.
2. Note that Vital said "Right" only in response to "Porto tiles should be tied to vinyards". He did not say he was going to issue an errata. (In other words, while he may regret that the rulebook says differently, he feels it's not a big deal either way and elects to just leave it be.)
3. Furthermore, in preparing the 2016 game, he and/or his rulebook writer would have gone through the 2010 forum threads on rules questions, and made sure to make necessary changes in the 2016 rulebook. Since they still didn't change this rule when writing the new 2016 rulebook, it's further evidence that he elects to just leave it be.
4. If it were true that Porto tiles should be tied to a specific vineyard, then by the same theory, Farmers that come with Ribatejo should be tied to a specific vineyard also (but, as far as I know, those Farmers can freely move).

Actually, here's a possibility: Maybe in preparing the 2016 rulebook, he did think about adding a sentence about Porto tiles being tied to a vineyard. But then for consistency, he figured he would have to make Ribatejo Farmers be tied to a vineyard also. But for two reasons, he didn't want to do that: (a) there's no good way to mark a Farmer in a Ribatejo estate as being tied or not tied; (b) it would be slavery!


You're making all sorts of wild leaps here.

It wasn't explicitly in the rules of the original edition either but the designer himself chimed in to confirm that this is indeed how porto should be used.

Except where explicitly stated otherwise everything from the 2010 edition carries over to the 2016 vintage. (he's said this himself more than once in the forums)

Since you still feel this is ambiguous I'll ask Vital to come visit and put it to rest definitively.
 
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Matteo V
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When I get the second wine tile, I shouldn't get another bonus. For example Ribatejo will offer only a farmer. Is this? Or I get a farmer for each wine tile?
 
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-=::) Dante (::=-
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allamarein wrote:
When I get the second wine tile, I shouldn't get another bonus. For example Ribatejo will offer only a farmer. Is this? Or I get a farmer for each wine tile?


You get the bonus only once per estate. So a second red vineyard on the same estate will not get another farmer, but if you started a second white wine estate with Ribatejo you would get another farmer.
 
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Vital Lacerda
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kaihuang wrote:
mfl134 wrote:

Note that porto tiles should remain on the estate that obtained them. In the event that you end up with multiple douro estates, the porto tiles cannot be exchanged between them.


Where does it say that in the rules? All I see from the Reference book is "You can spend a Porto tile during Production to increase a Douro (and only Douro) Wine's quality". It does not say that you are limited to using a Porto tile only in the particular estate where you got the Porto tile.


Thematicaly, makes sense that you can move the spirit to make Porto between Douro vineyards. I even had some playtesters who like to do that.
But tests proved that can be a very powerfull move. So, I always advise to keep the spirit on the same state where it was bought.
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