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Subject: [Trogs] Something is not right with our game rss

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Indalecio
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In a 4-players game, our first round ended with the Trog player netting 42 points, and nothing we did was extraordinary considering the following:

All non-trog players focused on getting two regions under their control, one with only an exploration token, and one with a war party token, which resulted in at least one combat with the trogs after revealing that war party token. The other players spent another round doing their stuff, the machines built, the humans recruited, the pilgrims drew cards etc. More recruitment going on, and the Trog player stepped into two other regions to generate control over two other regions and more Trog figures spawned.

Apparently quite typical for Trogs at the very early game.

Now every battle ended up resulting in the Trog player gaining control, due to cards being played, but mainly due to defender winning ties (and 0 troops versus 0 for this objective is techniclaly a tie). Also, the defender can react to cards being played, so that gives further edge to that player.

Each faction moving into a territory resulted into a lot of crystals being placed (war party token + the additional crystal when combat begins), therefore all resources ending up in the Trog's control, who naturally enabled scoring in this round, for a net total of 42 points.

We are no experienced players, but I don't know how we would have been able to prevent this from happening. I thought the Trog player would be winning the first couple of battles until he ran out of cards, making him vulnerable against the other players, the Pilgrims for instance (who drew like mad), but the 2 versus 2 situation appeared to be vastly in favor of the defender. Maybe moving in with "only" two figures in a new region with a trog party token is a mistake? Would 3 troops be the syndical minimum for standing a chance?

I know Trogs are supposed to be overwhelming at the begininng, but 42 points is a hell of a lead. We paused the game to see if somebody could come up with an explanation as for what we did wrong.

Edit: second player in the lead had only 6 points due to one controlled region, a few attritions and some prisoners.

 
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James Mathias
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Yttrenolv wrote:
In a 4-players game, our first round ended with the Trog player netting 42 points, and nothing we did was extraordinary considering the following:

All non-trog players focused on getting two regions under their control, one with only an exploration token, and one with a war party token, which resulted in at least one combat with the trogs after revealing that war party token. The other players spent another round doing their stuff, the machines built, the humans recruited, the pilgrims drew cards etc. More recruitment going on, and the Trog player stepped into two other regions to generate control over two other regions and more Trog figures spawned.

Apparently quite typical for Trogs at the very early game.

Now every battle ended up resulting in the Trog player gaining control, due to cards being played, but mainly due to defender winning ties (and 0 troops versus 0 for this objective is techniclaly a tie). Also, the defender can react to cards being played, so that gives further edge to that player.

Each faction moving into a territory resulted into a lot of crystals being placed (war party token + the additional crystal when combat begins), therefore all resources ending up in the Trog's control, who naturally enabled scoring in this round, for a net total of 42 points.

We are no experienced players, but I don't know how we would have been able to prevent this from happening. I thought the Trog player would be winning the first couple of battles until he ran out of cards, making him vulnerable against the other players, the Pilgrims for instance (who drew like mad), but the 2 versus 2 situation appeared to be vastly in favor of the defender. Maybe moving in with "only" two figures in a new region with a trog party token is a mistake? Would 3 troops be the syndical minimum for standing a chance?

I know Trogs are supposed to be overwhelming at the begininng, but 42 points is a hell of a lead. We paused the game to see if somebody could come up with an explanation as for what we did wrong.

Edit: second player in the lead had only 6 points due to one controlled region, a few attritions and some prisoners.



Did you remember that Trog's only score 1/2 points for controlled Crystals?
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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Starting a combat with only 2 unit is a HUGE mistake. You really want to have 1-2 more units than the opponent. So going in a Trog Nest zone, you want to go there with 4+ units.
 
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James Mathias
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Also how did you get so many crystals onto the board, and under the Trog's control in 1 round? I feel like maybe another rule was missed?
 
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Andy Szymas
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jmathias wrote:
Did you remember that Trog's only score 1/2 points for controlled Crystals?


This x2. I blew everyone away in my first game without realizing that I should have scored 1/2 as many crystal points.
 
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Grant Rodiek
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So, all Trog War Party tokens (green) trigger 1-3 trogs.

If Trogs win territory ties, don't march in with just 1 or 2 units. That's just a bad wager.

Also, as the Trogs don't have to spend time to Move or Recruit, they can spend extra time drawing Tactics, which they should do as they'll be fighting 1-3 battles every round every game.

Basically, don't feed the Trogs. Attack foolishly, lose foolishly.
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Indalecio
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OK so we counted the crystals wrong due to this 1/2 rule, so the Trog player should have 32 points instead of 42. Still, that's 530% the score of the second player in line.

So the mistake was to enter a region with a trog war party token with only two troops? But then there is something I don't quite understand. The map is covered in trog party tokens so unless you go in with your whole army (we are talking start of game) for an uncertain outcome, should you just stall and build up instead? I thought establishing control was key to building structures and expanding in general? Even if you recruit early, you cannot have enough cards in hand to follow that up with a mass move to a region in the first round? (you only have 4 cards in hand).

Although I can understand moving around 4-troops into one region as part of a single move may be easier in the late game, that's not something we considered given the number of cards it required bearing in mind we only had 4 standard cards in hand. Realistically I think only the human player was able to consider it, machines and pilgrim wouldn't have been able to throw in 4 troops into the next region towards the center with their cardsd in hand. That sounds very restrictive. At the same time the Trog player is free to roam and get all regions under control, for a big head start on the VP track.

In our case, the first event made everybody except the Trog player lose one troop even before we got started, so that kind of limited that possibility. All players spent two cards to get two move points (a fourth point would have required a third card, which people felt was way too expensive anyway). One troop was sent to a border region (safe from trogs) and the other two inside to get a fight going.

I'm also wondering about what you actually do with 4 troops if you reveal three trogs in the region. You have to set them in the control objective otherwise you don't get control, which is kind of the point of the invasion to get that control marker and start building stuff. Even if it's 4 versus 2, you have to put three in control and hope for no shenaningans.
 
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Richard Derr
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Yttrenolv wrote:
OK so we counted the crystals wrong due to this 1/2 rule, so the Trog player should have 32 points instead of 42. Still, that's 530% the score of the second player in line.


I'm just trying to back out the math here. So, if you went from 42 to 32, then you're saying they controlled a total of 20 crystal. This means the trogs scored 10 of their 32 points from crystals. How did they score the other 22?

I'm assuming the trogs enabled scoring, so they got the bonus for territories. Best case scenario for the trogs is everyone invaded 2 territories each including the trogs, but somehow every person lost control. Even in this scenario that's only 8 additional points.

How did the Trogs score the remaining 14 points?
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X Shrike
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rderr27 wrote:
Yttrenolv wrote:
OK so we counted the crystals wrong due to this 1/2 rule, so the Trog player should have 32 points instead of 42. Still, that's 530% the score of the second player in line.


I'm just trying to back out the math here. So, if you went from 42 to 32, then you're saying they controlled a total of 20 crystal. This means the trogs scored 10 of their 32 points from crystals. How did they score the other 22?

I'm assuming the trogs enabled scoring, so they got the bonus for territories. Best case scenario for the trogs is everyone invaded 2 territories each including the trogs, but somehow every person lost control. Even in this scenario that's only 8 additional points.

How did the Trogs score the remaining 14 points?


I bet they thought that the text on the enable scoring card is in addition to the score one point for each territory, instead of just reminding you what enable scoring allows. Every new group I play this with has one person interpreting the card like that.
 
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James Mathias
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XShrike wrote:
rderr27 wrote:
Yttrenolv wrote:
OK so we counted the crystals wrong due to this 1/2 rule, so the Trog player should have 32 points instead of 42. Still, that's 530% the score of the second player in line.


I'm just trying to back out the math here. So, if you went from 42 to 32, then you're saying they controlled a total of 20 crystal. This means the trogs scored 10 of their 32 points from crystals. How did they score the other 22?

I'm assuming the trogs enabled scoring, so they got the bonus for territories. Best case scenario for the trogs is everyone invaded 2 territories each including the trogs, but somehow every person lost control. Even in this scenario that's only 8 additional points.

How did the Trogs score the remaining 14 points?


I bet they thought that the text on the enable scoring card is in addition to the score one point for each territory, instead of just reminding you what enable scoring allows. Every new group I play this with has one person interpreting the card like that.


What do you mean?

When a player enables scoring, they score 1 point for every region they control, and 1 point for every crystal in those regions. Every other player scores 1 point for each crystal they control, except the Trogs whom score 1/2 point for every crystal.

That said the OP's math even at 32 points is not possible in 1 round for the Trog player.
 
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X Shrike
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jmathias wrote:
What do you mean?

When a player enables scoring, they score 1 point for every region they control, and 1 point for every crystal in those regions. Every other player scores 1 point for each crystal they control, except the Trogs whom score 1/2 point for every crystal.

That said the OP's math even at 32 points is not possible in 1 round for the Trog player.


The way enable scoring works is as you describe it. Only the player playing the enable scoring action gets one point for every region they control.

I have seen threads on this board and played with people that thought the text on enable scoring was in addition to how enable scoring was described. So they think they score one point for each territory they control, because that is what enable scoring means. Then they score one point for each territory they control because the enable scoring card says it as well. So they think that playing enable scoring effectively gives them two points for each region they control.

There are 20 regions on the board, including HQ's.

Say the non Trogs only take two additional territories and the Trog take the others. So the Trog would control 11 territories.

If they think enable scoring effectively gives two points for each territory as described above, that gives the Trog 22 points from territories. Controlling 20 crystals only gives them an additional 10 points.

Giving the Trog player a total of 32 points.
 
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Indalecio
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I can confirm we did not double-count the scores. We did notice the text was repeated on the card itself, but assumed it was a reminder.

Points-wise:
- Trogs controlled 8 areas at scoring (HQ, 5 areas from combat and 2 controlled after move without opposition) so that's 8 points.

- 20 crystals total in those regions: 10 points

- 5 control objectives reached through combat: 10 points

- 4 prisoners: 4 points

= 32 points total (wrongly counted 42 earlier due to us not 1/2:ing the crystals)
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Graham Gass
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How on earth did the trogs win all 5 battles AND take 4 prisoners? Honestly this sounds more like a weird thought experiment to see how many points you could possibly feed him than a real game.
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Indalecio
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Flame112 wrote:
How on earth did the trogs win all 5 battles AND take 4 prisoners? Honestly this sounds more like a weird thought experiment to see how many points you could possibly feed him than a real game.


Well like I said we´re beginners with this game, so it's not like we were planning on trying to break something. What we did could well be called sub-optimal play, but I don't see anything extreme with what we did. Then of course, that first event (regions with 4 troops lose one troop) certainly put some oil onto the fire.

We played that first round thinking the Trog player wouldn't be so predominant. That was probably naive and so on. But I don't see that score being impossible to reach again in thesame circunstances. That's why I´m posting here, because we were concerned about something not being right and paused the game. At least we got the Trog score correct now, but people are of course a lot less motivated to start the second round (except the Trog player obv.)

About winning 5 battles: yeah, it went exactly like that. All attackers had exactly two troops in, and all Trog tokens being revealed added 2 or 3 trog troops, so that meant control to the trog player everytime, then trog could even sometimes play cards to dump even more troops into the battle. Then moving around some of the troops using cards (or playing the sheer number advantage) to capture objectives was not an issue. I don't think the Trog player was playing extraordinarly well or got lucky, but the clear advantage given to the defender at equal troop numbers would have made him win a 6th battle should it have arisen.
 
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Jonathan Maisonneuve
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Yttrenolv wrote:


So the mistake was to enter a region with a trog war party token with only two troops? But then there is something I don't quite understand. The map is covered in trog party tokens so unless you go in with your whole army (we are talking start of game) for an uncertain outcome, should you just stall and build up instead? I thought establishing control was key to building structures and expanding in general? Even if you recruit early, you cannot have enough cards in hand to follow that up with a mass move to a region in the first round? (you only have 4 cards in hand).


You have to recruit units. Yes the first turn is a slow turn. Usually you can draw card, recruit 2 unit, then move one of them to the empty zone next to your base and the 5 other units into a trog region. 5 units is usually enough to win easily a region. So you have 2 region on your first turn. On next turn you draw again, recruit some more, then move to 1 or 2 regions depending of movement points.

You are not suppossed to try to control the whole map in your first 2 turns. Consolidate your positions, better be strong in few places than weak in many places.

On your 3rd turn, build some, enable scoring, get a 3rd or 4th zone.
 
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Richard Derr
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Yttrenolv wrote:
Flame112 wrote:
How on earth did the trogs win all 5 battles AND take 4 prisoners? Honestly this sounds more like a weird thought experiment to see how many points you could possibly feed him than a real game.


Well like I said we´re beginners with this game, so it's not like we were planning on trying to break something. What we did could well be called sub-optimal play, but I don't see anything extreme with what we did. Then of course, that first event (regions with 4 troops lose one troop) certainly put some oil onto the fire.

We played that first round thinking the Trog player wouldn't be so predominant. That was probably naive and so on. But I don't see that score being impossible to reach again in thesame circunstances. That's why I´m posting here, because we were concerned about something not being right and paused the game. At least we got the Trog score correct now, but people are of course a lot less motivated to start the second round (except the Trog player obv.)

About winning 5 battles: yeah, it went exactly like that. All attackers had exactly two troops in, and all Trog tokens being revealed added 2 or 3 trog troops, so that meant control to the trog player everytime, then trog could even sometimes play cards to dump even more troops into the battle. Then moving around some of the troops using cards (or playing the sheer number advantage) to capture objectives was not an issue. I don't think the Trog player was playing extraordinarly well or got lucky, but the clear advantage given to the defender at equal troop numbers would have made him win a 6th battle should it have arisen.


I'll say I've never seen 5 battles in the first round, though i only have 4 or 5 plays. I think you were all a little over ambitious especially with starting 1 troop down to kick it off. You spread yourselves way too thin and went into battles where you didn't know how many opponents you would be facing and with very limited cards. If you play again, I would not take this approach again.

Additionally, if the trogs were able to win control and take a prisoner in 4 of the 5 battles, then there was likely some poor battle strategy. Sometimes, you need to put all your guys on the control objective even if you know you will likely lose. This will at least force the trog player to play his trogs there.

Just to be sure you're playing this correctly, ties do not go to the defender in the prisoner objective.

I think these are just the growing pains of learning a new game. The good news is that you have likely shaved about 2 rounds off the game, so it will be over soon. Learn your lessons and try it again.
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Brandon Prestie
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We'll don't feel like you were the only gamers this happened to.

On our first game the trogs scored enough to surpass the 2nd event marker in the first round albeit it wasn't 32 points. And they even lost half of their battles resulting from the trog war party tokens.

They had such a runaway score that none of the other players were able to catch them as the game only lasted 4 rounds instead of 5 due to them passing the 2nd event marker after just the first round.

 
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Oak Wolf
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Both Trogs and Humans will try to shave one round of the game. Pilgrims and Machines must attempt to prevent that, and the two "rushing" races are competing between each other as well.

When attacking, always try to bring more troops and/or more tactic cards to the battle. Vs Trog War Parties/Nest, Since the average is 2 Trogs per token, going with only 2 is a gamble. Going with 3 is much better, and 4 is slightly over the top but may be worth it if the territory is key for your expansion. Keep in mind the # of battles. Keep the best cards for the most important battles.
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Steve
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Sybaris wrote:
Both Trogs and Humans will try to shave one round of the game. Pilgrims and Machines must attempt to prevent that, and the two "rushing" races are competing between each other as well.

The Pilgrims don't really need to prevent that. By taking only a few regions they can generate plenty of points to take the game. The only faction that needs the game to go long is the Machines. Therefore they can be effectively knocked out of very easily as no one else normally shares their interest in a long game.
 
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Oak Wolf
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My experience (which is 12 games atm so not that much) does not lead me to the same conclusion, so maybe it's just a matter of our pilgrim player not taking off early enough, or it's because everyone else prevent them to do so.
 
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Jonathan Star
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Just want to confirm one thing:
Trogs trigger the war party tokens that bring in trogs/crystals when they enter the territory or is it only when opponents enter?

Round one I moved all over and formed huge trog parties in front of machine's HQ. But putting all my pieces on the board meant that others could easily roam and only have to sacrifice one unit.

Also the entire game, everyone fought me alone! Every battle was vs trogs. I guess part of it was because they wanted to slow me down.
 
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Grant Rodiek
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u1timo wrote:
Just want to confirm one thing:
Trogs trigger the war party tokens that bring in trogs/crystals when they enter the territory or is it only when opponents enter?

Round one I moved all over and formed huge trog parties in front of machine's HQ. But putting all my pieces on the board meant that others could easily roam and only have to sacrifice one unit.

Also the entire game, everyone fought me alone! Every battle was vs trogs. I guess part of it was because they wanted to slow me down.


Trogs are the pied piper. If they enter a Region with Trog War Party/Nest tokens, they immediately Trigger them. Which means if you manage your reserve poorly then tokens will resolve without adding units to the board.
 
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