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Subject: Flak rss

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Kev.
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Hmm.
Even using the new / modified table for Flak it seems very powerful.
B rated and C rated flak has same kill chances, and every unit in range can fire once if I read it right?
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Mark Herman
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hipshot wrote:
Hmm.
Even using the new / modified table for Flak it seems very powerful.
B rated and C rated flak has same kill chances, and every unit in range can fire once if I read it right?


If you consider the IAF in the 73 war you can see what influenced the games model. I think it was accurate in a 1978 snapshot, but SEAD got a great deal of investment in the 80s so it is hard to say when the inflection point occurred.
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Dan Stueber
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You almost have to play with the supply rules for the Flak units. If not they can simply blaze away at every plane in range until NATO is blotted from the sky. Even the tough F-111 and A-10 units cannot stand up to it. The law of averages catches up to them and sooner or later they are simply lost. One of the only systems of the game I thought was way off.

Dan
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Ian Raine
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MarkHerman wrote:
hipshot wrote:
Hmm.
Even using the new / modified table for Flak it seems very powerful.
B rated and C rated flak has same kill chances, and every unit in range can fire once if I read it right?


If you consider the IAF in the 73 war you can see what influenced the games model. I think it was accurate in a 1978 snapshot, but SEAD got a great deal of investment in the 80s so it is hard to say when the inflection point occurred.


Mark, while you are here-

Is NATO meant to be able to directly air-ground attack Front Supply Head markers and force them to displace (as per the air ground combat results table) or is the supply interdiction air attack rule intended to cover the effects of deep logistics strikes?
 
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Mark Herman
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IanR wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
hipshot wrote:
Hmm.
Even using the new / modified table for Flak it seems very powerful.
B rated and C rated flak has same kill chances, and every unit in range can fire once if I read it right?


If you consider the IAF in the 73 war you can see what influenced the games model. I think it was accurate in a 1978 snapshot, but SEAD got a great deal of investment in the 80s so it is hard to say when the inflection point occurred.


Mark, while you are here-

Is NATO meant to be able to directly air-ground attack Front Supply Head markers and force them to displace (as per the air ground combat results table) or is the supply interdiction air attack rule intended to cover the effects of deep logistics strikes?


I am not near a copy of the game, so unless you can post the rule verbatim I cannot answer the question with any certainty. Just from the sounds of it, I would guess that the displacement is a simple way to show interdiction. That's just a guess without the rules.
 
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Ian Raine
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MarkHerman wrote:
IanR wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
hipshot wrote:
Hmm.
Even using the new / modified table for Flak it seems very powerful.
B rated and C rated flak has same kill chances, and every unit in range can fire once if I read it right?


If you consider the IAF in the 73 war you can see what influenced the games model. I think it was accurate in a 1978 snapshot, but SEAD got a great deal of investment in the 80s so it is hard to say when the inflection point occurred.


Mark, while you are here-

Is NATO meant to be able to directly air-ground attack Front Supply Head markers and force them to displace (as per the air ground combat results table) or is the supply interdiction air attack rule intended to cover the effects of deep logistics strikes?


I am not near a copy of the game, so unless you can post the rule verbatim I cannot answer the question with any certainty. Just from the sounds of it, I would guess that the displacement is a simple way to show interdiction. That's just a guess without the rules.


Mark, first thank you for responding. Secondly, it arises this way:

1. In the notes under table 21.46 (air-ground combat) it says:

"+" [result] = If the hex contains a... a Front Supply Head the Front Supply Head is displaced.

2. At rule [13.76], if the RR Regt is eliminated, it is displaced. [13.76] A Front Supply Head that is stacked with a Soviet railroad regiment which is eliminated due to combat is displaced (see Case 8.34). Same result.

3. In Moves #42 the late Mr Donaldson said this (on page 12) -

"General supply on the Warsaw Pact side is run through Front Supply Heads. These FSH units do not represent the Soviet Front as an organization (comparable to an Army Group), but rather represent a quantitative estimate of Soviet logistical capabilities. The aerial interdiction of Warsaw Pact supply was worked out by the author after an idea by Mark Herman. What it represents is attacks on trains and convoys more than on rails and concrete."

4. Rule 21.7, quoted in full below, seemed to me to be your more reasoned appreciation of the degrading of supply deliveries by deep strikes,intended to replace the abstraction.

I think the question is, was [21.7] meant to replace the abstract idea of attacking the FSH and displacing them, and are the charts/rules references above simply things that the late Mr Donaldson didn't have time to tidy up? Alternately, was he skiing off piste and should we just go with the original abstraction and ignore [21.7]?

[21.7] NATO INTERDICTION OF WARSAW PACT SUPPLY
NATO may use Air-to-Ground Attack in an attempt to destroy trains or trucks along main Warsaw Pact supply lines. When these main supply lines are thus interdicted, the Warsaw Pact must rely upon single-track rail lines and two-lane highways, whose capacity is limited. Thus the effect of such interdiction is to force rationing of supplies.

[21.71] At the beginning of the Warsaw Pact Movement and Combat Phase, the NATO Player may demand that the Warsaw Pact Player trace the supply path of any or all of his Front Supply Heads (see Section 8.0 and Case 21.75). He may then attack any hex(es) along that path using regular Air-to-Ground combat procedures. Note: This is an exception to Case 21.0 that Friendly Air-to-Ground Attacks must be made during the Friendly Land Stage.

[21.72] If the NATO Player attacks a hex which is part of a Front Supply Head’s supply path using Air-to-Ground Attack and the result is “ + ,” then the hex is interdicted. All Front Supply Heads tracing their supply paths through that hex are considered interdicted. This interdiction remains in effect for the rest of the current Game-Turn only. Players must keep track of this on a separate piece of paper.

[21.73] All combat units (not support units) tracing their supply path through an interdicted Front Supply Head suffer a combat die modification of 4 added to the Enemy die modification total, if using General Supply. They may not move more than 2 hexes using General Supply.

[21.74] An interdicted Front Supply Head may resupply no more than 10 divisions or division equivalents with Organic Supply Points (see Case 17.3).

[21.75] For application in this Case only, Front Supply Heads must trace that part of their supply path which runs through Warsaw Pact countries via railroads and/or autobahns in those countries, with the exception of up to 5 hexes along each Front Supply Head’s supply path. Any FSH which is unable to trace such a path is automatically interdicted. Example: A Front Supply Head is in hex C3111, in West Germany. Since there are Enemy units along the road to Magdeburg, the Warsaw Pact Player decides to trace its supply path overland to hex C3412, still in West Germany. From the border, the supply path is traced overland via hexes C3513/3613/3714/3814, thence by rail to Cottbus (hex C5514). Since the railroad bridge at C5714-5613 is also damaged, the Warsaw Pact Player chooses to trace the supply path via Autobahn from Cottbus to C5614, overland through hex C5715, across the Neisse River (a Minor river), and continuing on the Polish Autobahn to the map edge. As only five hexes of this supply path through the Warsaw Pact countries are not on rail or Autobahn, the path meets the requirements of this Case.

[21.76] Units may use Organic Supply to avoid the die modification penalty in Case 21.73.

[21.77] When using Section 33.0 Reconnaissance is not needed to execute Supply Interdiction



 
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Mark Herman
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IanR wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
IanR wrote:
MarkHerman wrote:
hipshot wrote:
Hmm.
Even using the new / modified table for Flak it seems very powerful.
B rated and C rated flak has same kill chances, and every unit in range can fire once if I read it right?


If you consider the IAF in the 73 war you can see what influenced the games model. I think it was accurate in a 1978 snapshot, but SEAD got a great deal of investment in the 80s so it is hard to say when the inflection point occurred.


Mark, while you are here-

Is NATO meant to be able to directly air-ground attack Front Supply Head markers and force them to displace (as per the air ground combat results table) or is the supply interdiction air attack rule intended to cover the effects of deep logistics strikes?


I am not near a copy of the game, so unless you can post the rule verbatim I cannot answer the question with any certainty. Just from the sounds of it, I would guess that the displacement is a simple way to show interdiction. That's just a guess without the rules.


Mark, first thank you for responding. Secondly, it arises this way:

1. In the notes under table 21.46 (air-ground combat) it says:

"+" [result] = If the hex contains a... a Front Supply Head the Front Supply Head is displaced.

2. At rule [13.76], if the RR Regt is eliminated, it is displaced. [13.76] A Front Supply Head that is stacked with a Soviet railroad regiment which is eliminated due to combat is displaced (see Case 8.34). Same result.

3. In Moves #42 the late Mr Donaldson said this (on page 12) -

"General supply on the Warsaw Pact side is run through Front Supply Heads. These FSH units do not represent the Soviet Front as an organization (comparable to an Army Group), but rather represent a quantitative estimate of Soviet logistical capabilities. The aerial interdiction of Warsaw Pact supply was worked out by the author after an idea by Mark Herman. What it represents is attacks on trains and convoys more than on rails and concrete."

4. Rule 21.7, quoted in full below, seemed to me to be your more reasoned appreciation of the degrading of supply deliveries by deep strikes,intended to replace the abstraction.

I think the question is, was [21.7] meant to replace the abstract idea of attacking the FSH and displacing them, and are the charts/rules references above simply things that the late Mr Donaldson didn't have time to tidy up? Alternately, was he skiing off piste and should we just go with the original abstraction and ignore [21.7]?

[21.7] NATO INTERDICTION OF WARSAW PACT SUPPLY
NATO may use Air-to-Ground Attack in an attempt to destroy trains or trucks along main Warsaw Pact supply lines. When these main supply lines are thus interdicted, the Warsaw Pact must rely upon single-track rail lines and two-lane highways, whose capacity is limited. Thus the effect of such interdiction is to force rationing of supplies.

[21.71] At the beginning of the Warsaw Pact Movement and Combat Phase, the NATO Player may demand that the Warsaw Pact Player trace the supply path of any or all of his Front Supply Heads (see Section 8.0 and Case 21.75). He may then attack any hex(es) along that path using regular Air-to-Ground combat procedures. Note: This is an exception to Case 21.0 that Friendly Air-to-Ground Attacks must be made during the Friendly Land Stage.

[21.72] If the NATO Player attacks a hex which is part of a Front Supply Head’s supply path using Air-to-Ground Attack and the result is “ + ,” then the hex is interdicted. All Front Supply Heads tracing their supply paths through that hex are considered interdicted. This interdiction remains in effect for the rest of the current Game-Turn only. Players must keep track of this on a separate piece of paper.

[21.73] All combat units (not support units) tracing their supply path through an interdicted Front Supply Head suffer a combat die modification of 4 added to the Enemy die modification total, if using General Supply. They may not move more than 2 hexes using General Supply.

[21.74] An interdicted Front Supply Head may resupply no more than 10 divisions or division equivalents with Organic Supply Points (see Case 17.3).

[21.75] For application in this Case only, Front Supply Heads must trace that part of their supply path which runs through Warsaw Pact countries via railroads and/or autobahns in those countries, with the exception of up to 5 hexes along each Front Supply Head’s supply path. Any FSH which is unable to trace such a path is automatically interdicted. Example: A Front Supply Head is in hex C3111, in West Germany. Since there are Enemy units along the road to Magdeburg, the Warsaw Pact Player decides to trace its supply path overland to hex C3412, still in West Germany. From the border, the supply path is traced overland via hexes C3513/3613/3714/3814, thence by rail to Cottbus (hex C5514). Since the railroad bridge at C5714-5613 is also damaged, the Warsaw Pact Player chooses to trace the supply path via Autobahn from Cottbus to C5614, overland through hex C5715, across the Neisse River (a Minor river), and continuing on the Polish Autobahn to the map edge. As only five hexes of this supply path through the Warsaw Pact countries are not on rail or Autobahn, the path meets the requirements of this Case.

[21.76] Units may use Organic Supply to avoid the die modification penalty in Case 21.73.

[21.77] When using Section 33.0 Reconnaissance is not needed to execute Supply Interdiction





My now deceased friend Donny continued to expand the game after publication and after I left SPI. Am I correct in saying that section 21 quoted here were not in the original game? I did not agree with everything he put out on how his variants.

The simple answer is you can attack the Supply head to interdict and displace it backward, presumably putting WP units OOS.

Mark

 
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Ian Raine
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Thanks Mark.

Seems much easier to move some SAM units around the FSH's than try and protect the whole route.

[21.7] was in the rules as originally published.
 
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Kev.
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BooBoo130 wrote:
You almost have to play with the supply rules for the Flak units. If not they can simply blaze away at every plane in range until NATO is blotted from the sky. Even the tough F-111 and A-10 units cannot stand up to it. The law of averages catches up to them and sooner or later they are simply lost. One of the only systems of the game I thought was way off.

Dan

I am Dan! ITs a ball buster.. aint gunna be any air left on either side at this rate
Turn2 is about to start.
 
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Mark Herman
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hipshot wrote:
BooBoo130 wrote:
You almost have to play with the supply rules for the Flak units. If not they can simply blaze away at every plane in range until NATO is blotted from the sky. Even the tough F-111 and A-10 units cannot stand up to it. The law of averages catches up to them and sooner or later they are simply lost. One of the only systems of the game I thought was way off.

Dan

I am Dan! ITs a ball buster.. aint gunna be any air left on either side at this rate
Turn2 is about to start.


Think '73 war, get ground deep, disrupt overlapping SAM batteries then bring in the air. Wwe had the '73 war and Vietnam as models. ECM was still evolving in '77. If you think it's too much apply a global modifier.

Mark
 
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Kev.
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MarkHerman wrote:
hipshot wrote:
BooBoo130 wrote:
You almost have to play with the supply rules for the Flak units. If not they can simply blaze away at every plane in range until NATO is blotted from the sky. Even the tough F-111 and A-10 units cannot stand up to it. The law of averages catches up to them and sooner or later they are simply lost. One of the only systems of the game I thought was way off.

Dan

I am Dan! ITs a ball buster.. aint gunna be any air left on either side at this rate
Turn2 is about to start.


Think '73 war, get ground deep, disrupt overlapping SAM batteries then bring in the air. Wwe had the '73 war and Vietnam as models. ECM was still evolving in '77. If you think it's too much apply a global modifier.

Mark

No worries Mark, I'd like to try Rules As Written first, then adjust from there. Challenge is not dying before a second play!!
This was also pre strong awacs, and pre exploit of Soviet air/Sam espionage and higher res real time satellite. Lots of factors.
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