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Subject: What to do when you lose and game is still on? rss

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Ivan Valdivia
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Hello Everyone,

So the deal is I made my own board game. its a 1-4 players. In a 1v1 its easy to know who won. Its last man standing.

When more than 2 players are playing here is the deal. So I have played many games and after one of the 3 or 4 players lose. what is the loser supposed to do? Just sit there and watch the game end?

Is that even joyful for you? I mean the game can last another 30 to 60 minutes till game is over.

My suggestion was the "dead" player still gets to move around the map but as a ghost and where ever he lands he leaves a mark. When a "life" player stops at that mark he must battle a ghost or losses life or something. Im open so suggestions.

This was the "dead" player still interacts in the game and is not bored to death waiting for the rest of the players to end this game.

My co designer does not like the idea but yet i love it. So here i am asking the experts about the idea since we cannot agree.

Any suggestions are very welcome.
 
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Re: Dead player still Interactin on life game
I think it would be helpful to know a little more about the game first. Depending upon the theme and main game play it could work, it's certainly been done before (Sentinels of the Multiverse is the first that comes to mind). However it could just as easily not work or worse create a "kingmaker" situation as the dead player helps another live player eliminate someone.

Maybe the way to handle it is to create an alternative win condition for the eliminated players. So they are still "in" the game and interacting w/ the other players but they are working towards a different goal and now acting as a timer for the other players. Again it depends upon the theme and how the game works.
 
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Greg
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I generally don't play games with player elimination unless the game is very short.

In what you suggested, is there anyway for the "dead" player to still win? Or is it still considered a loss for him? If he has lost the game, and you are just basically just giving him stuff to do until the end of the game, I personally would not enjoy that. I would rather go play a different game after I have been eliminated.
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Ivan Valdivia
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exactly but why? because you have nothing to do once you have been eliminated ? or just not your game type.
 
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PJ Cunningham
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Re: Dead player still Interactin on life game
Player elimination can certainly be a problem, and most designers remove or reduce it from their games nowadays. I think you're on the right track in looking for a way to keep eliminated players active in the game.

However, if there is no longer a way to win after being elminated, some folks may lose interest anyway, even though they're still influencing the outcome.

I'd suggest exploring alternative victory conditions, such as awarding points each time you eliminate a player, but allowing eliminated players to either re-enter or continue the game, and then count points after a set number of turns or a time limit is reached. Depending on the type of game, you might also want to come up with some alternate ways to get points as well, to allow players to explore different strategies.

Be sure to check out BGG's Game Design sub-forums for more advice.
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Greg
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Mdj latam games wrote:
exactly but why? because you have nothing to do once you have been eliminated ? or just not your game type.


Sorry, I edited my previous post with an added question for you after you posted this.

But yes, player elimination could cause one player to have nothing to do, so unless there are other games around that player can join, it can really be a frustrating experience for the player eliminated.

But, just to reiterate, has the player lost when they die? Is there anyway for them to win?
 
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Ivan Valdivia
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short version of game:
You have tile laying game. around 80 tiles that draws a path some have " villages." current way to win is control all the villages or be last one alive.

Game ends when all tiles are used or only one player remains standing.

but that is a very good point! the "dead" could team up with one of the "living" players.

I guess i do see that comming.. unless if the "dead" manages to kill another one he comes back to life.. only thing is, that this would increase the game time a lot.

It currently is around 30-90 minutes. because of the elimination.

If this is added then the only way to win would be to control the villages.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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s3kt0r wrote:
I generally don't play games with player elimination unless the game is very short.

In what you suggested, is there anyway for the "dead" player to still win? Or is it still considered a loss for him? If he has lost the game, and you are just basically just giving him stuff to do until the end of the game, I personally would not enjoy that. I would rather go play a different after I have been eliminated.
Pretty much this nowadays, having been in the loser position in (say) diplomacy more then once).

Personally I would allow out of game discussion so as not the exclude the loser. Another option is to let them kibbutz with another player.
 
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Ivan Valdivia
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Well i dont like to be sitting there with nothing to do. I lost couple times and game did last from 30-40 more minutes till the other two players finally eliminated eachother.

I was saying be active even when lost so you can help game end faster. A way to come back into the game? well it can be possible lets say you act as a ghost whos looking for a way back to the living.

You can eliminate another player and come back to the game. however this would only allow the game to end after the 80 path tiles have been placed. this would increase the game time to 120m appx. too long for my opinion.

 
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Greg
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Mdj latam games wrote:
Well i dont like to be sitting there with nothing to do. I lost couple times and game did last from 30-40 more minutes till the other two players finally eliminated eachother.

I was saying be active even when lost so you can help game end faster. A way to come back into the game? well it can be possible lets say you act as a ghost whos looking for a way back to the living.

You can eliminate another player and come back to the game. however this would only allow the game to end after the 80 path tiles have been placed. this would increase the game time to 120m appx. too long for my opinion.


I thinking losing the game, but still being forced to do stuff that doesn't matter, would be worse to me than just being straight out eliminated.
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Ivan Valdivia
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thanks! ill check that one out now.
 
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Look on my works ye mighty and despair
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Personally, I'd have no issue at all with someone having to sit out the game. 30 minutes to an hour isn't that long, although it's obviously relative to the game as a whole.

I'm in a minority on here, but I actively support player elimination in the right game. It adds consequences in a way few other mechanisms can match.

But if you want people to stay involved the whole time I wouldn't worry too much about this:

fh13 wrote:
However it could just as easily not work or worse create a "kingmaker" situation as the dead player helps another live player eliminate someone.


Any game with direct player conflict has a high chance of creating a kingmaking situation. Making plans for that is part of the game.

Especially as some of the other most common alternatives to player elimination are worse.

You get "effective player elimination" where someone is obviously out of the game but has to carry on playing.

To rectify that, you see things like catch up mechanisms. Which aren't as bad, but they make the risk to reward ratio smaller. Not all of us want to play "everyone gets a medal" games.

So yeah, my advice would either to be just go for full elimnation or go with the dead players being allowed to attack idea.
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Mdj latam games wrote:
This was the "dead" player still interacts in the game and is not bored to death waiting for the rest of the players to end this game.

The dead player is at this point an automaton which gets to watch others have fun. Frankly, I'd rather be excused at this point so I can do something which engages me for a significantly longer stretch of time: read a book, watch a movie, play with the family cat, nibble on a snack.

This is the main reason player elimination is frowned upon, by the way. It's not the elimination in itself that is the problem; it's how you get excluded from an activity in which the chances are fairly high that all of the people you can possibly engage with are still tied up in a game.

Quote:
My co designer does not like the idea but yet i love it. So here i am asking the experts about the idea since we cannot agree.

Agreement here is impossible. The only way to make elimination of the kind where nothing sensible remains palatable is by keeping the remaining playing time very short. If that cannot be arranged for, you'll have to agree to disagree, and part ways as far as this design is concerned.
 
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Pete
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Mdj latam games wrote:
My suggestion was the "dead" player still gets to move around the map but as a ghost and where ever he lands he leaves a mark. When a "life" player stops at that mark he must battle a ghost or losses life or something.
Why would the "dead" player bother?

Pete (sees no reason to do this)
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Mark T
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s3kt0r wrote:
I generally don't play games with player elimination unless the game is very short.

In what you suggested, is there anyway for the "dead" player to still win? Or is it still considered a loss for him? If he has lost the game, and you are just basically just giving him stuff to do until the end of the game, I personally would not enjoy that. I would rather go play a different game after I have been eliminated.


You have captured my thoughts very nicely. Player elimination seems like an idea that is past it's prime. I don't care for it precisely because those eliminated are left with nothing to do.

The OP mentions letting the eliminated player stick around, but without providing a way for that player to win, I don't see the point.
 
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I play very few games with player elimination.

If I was in the position again would probably just sit and watch the game. Or wander around the room, or dive into my phone.

EDIT:

Player elimination is bad for a group of people meeting at someones house. Player elimination is fine at a board game meetup. The losing player just gets up and finds another table.
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Pete
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s3kt0r wrote:
In what you suggested, is there anyway for the "dead" player to still win? Or is it still considered a loss for him?
I'd be content with a mechanism to keep all other players from winning.

Pete (will still play for a draw)
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Ivan Valdivia
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cymric wrote:
[q="Mdj latam games"]
This is the main reason player elimination is frowned upon, by the way. It's not the elimination in itself that is the problem; it's how you get excluded from an activity in which the chances are fairly high that all of the people you can possibly engage with are still tied up in a game.


this is what i want to avoid. I mean player elimination is a way to win but not the only one.

heres a little more of the game to get an idea.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/24062519#24062519

I guess the only way for this to work is to have the "dead" player have a way back into the game again, otherwise its pointless or not attractive to other people as suggested on this thread.
 
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Personally I would rather be completely out of a game than take on a marginal and nuisance role.
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Shawn Harriman
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This description of the game and gameplay sounds like a broken game that I would not play.
If there is player elimination there must be a realistic ability for all still playing to win or it is problematic.
What can you do but try to sabotage the game and or pick the winner?
Not fun IMO
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John Breckenridge
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Mdj latam games wrote:
short version of game:
You have tile laying game. around 80 tiles that draws a path some have " villages." current way to win is control all the villages or be last one alive.

Game ends when all tiles are used or only one player remains standing.

but that is a very good point! the "dead" could team up with one of the "living" players.

I guess i do see that comming.. unless if the "dead" manages to kill another one he comes back to life.. only thing is, that this would increase the game time a lot.

It currently is around 30-90 minutes. because of the elimination.

If this is added then the only way to win would be to control the villages.


You could change the end game condition so the game ends as soon as any player is eliminated, and just determine the winner the same way you do when the tiles run out.

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Maarten D. de Jong
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Mdj latam games wrote:
I guess the only way for this to work is to have the "dead" player have a way back into the game again, otherwise its pointless or not attractive to other people as suggested on this thread.

Alternatively, give dead players a goal of their own to pursue. Look up Martin Wallace's Liberté, which more or less has 'dead' players (= the ones which can no longer win through regular means) attempt a sudden death victory (pun not entirely unintended).

You can also look at De Vulgari Eloquentia in which players can permanently switch roles with completely different victory outlooks... but the catch here is that the new role is vampiric towards the old roles. If you switch early, those who remain in that old role might still outpace you. But if too many switch, the old role can no longer support those vampires, forcing a switch as well, which by that time will be too late for victory. Quite an insidious mechanism. Too bad the rulebook is absolute bovine scatology.
 
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maf man
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kinda surprised this wasn't mentioned yet as an example. Its player elimination but they just come back obi wan style.
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Ivan Valdivia
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jbrecken wrote:


You could change the end game condition so the game ends as soon as any player is eliminated, and just determine the winner the same way you do when the tiles run out.



hmm not a bad idea actually. to have game end as soon as one player is eliminated or all tiles placed. Only "but" is the game then can end too early around 20 minutes of gameplay.

Is that too short? We normally have matches from 40-120 tops
 
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Ivan Valdivia
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Dostradamas wrote:
This description of the game and gameplay sounds like a broken game that I would not play.
If there is player elimination there must be a realistic ability for all still playing to win or it is problematic.
What can you do but try to sabotage the game and or pick the winner?
Not fun IMO


How so broken? id like to understand your point of view.
 
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