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Subject: So. First game. Kind of underwhelmed... rss

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Peter
Germany
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Hi,
so we did our first game yesterday with four people. 1 scenario.
we picked it random and had a day in the circus.
so far so good. setup etc. and go.

we picked peter, ripley, dayle walker and dieter.
first action of everyone was to get an imaginary locker to get some more stuff. than we spread a little bit to get some memory tokens and some more stuff. was first game. we wanter to see some stuff.

here was the first problem. we had 3 actions (ripley 4) but as everything you do needs an action you don't feel like you are doing much. you move 2 small space and look at a door (3rd action) only to find a barricade 6 door.

now you have the option to destroy (or nearly) one of the few weapons you get to open the door... or spend 2 full rounds nothing else than trying to reduce the door value. or use one full round to get to the second door. only to find out that it is a barricade 4 door...
but you want the locker behind because you need stuff to progress somehow. but what do you find in the locker? another weapon which might be slightly better or weaker than the one you destroyed. by good roll some med. by bad roll you get nothing just a monster.
so you spend 4 turns to open a locker. or 2 turns and a weapon to get... a new weapon...

later on some tried to get to a memory token. (it took him 3 full turns to go there. do nothing else than movbing and opening doors, not one fight) one action to get to the space. one action to oick the memory token. one action to use the memory token. bad memory. bad roll. no effect.
whole round for nearly nothing.
you don't feel like you are getting anywhere... full 4 rounds for a bad memory which made nothing due to a bad roll. a good roll had given us an extra turn before the chief spawns...
i don't see the balance here.

and the char arnie has only two actions per round...
yes you can run to move faster. but then you cannot look at doors anymore and try to open it.
so picking up stuff is no real choice resp. you dont see any progress here. no real option.

combat. yeah. we fight some basic monster. problem was only peter was good at fighting.
with bare hands you get 3d6. peter has a success of 4 and higher. the other guys in the team 5 and higher. so from statistic you make one hit with bare hands. maybe two as peter. but even the basic monster have one armor to negate one success. and like 4 or 5 hp (nurses and mental patients). only scavenger where possible (no armor low HP). ok with weapons it gets a little bit easier. best weapon in deck let you roll 7 dice. from statistic you get 2-3 hits (or 4 as peter).
the clown (our boss) had armor 2. so maybe you get to make 1 or 2 dmg.
but the clown has avoidance to reduce dmg received (33% chance). and by bad draw he can heal 3 dmg...
the only possibility to really weaken or kill him really is a AOE attack.
you have to gather all monster on one space (like 7-8) and do a AOE attacke where you can roll 4 dice per monster. this has to be done by peter in order to get appr. 12 hits (statistic) or maybe 18 by a good roll. than you reduce by highest monster armor (-2). distribute one hit to each monster and put the rest one the clown.

the final boss would have had armor 3 and 24 HP. i don't see any chance to kill him.

the worst thing was from scenario that the clown more or less runs away from you. he had three actions. so in worst case you have to use your full turn just to follow hin and do nothing more.

turn order is the next issue. we had the situation that dieter (a bad fighter - 5+) with a 5 dice weapon and peter were on the same field with a basic monster (mental patient). dieter spend all 3 actions and the durability of his weapon to do 2 dmg to the monster.
peter was later in turn order and one hit the monster...
if we get this to the table again we will houserule this....

so in the beginning i said we spread a little bid to explore the map. this was clearly a failure. we should have sticked together, move directly to the clown and jsut hit em. use our insanity to increas our attack success and kill him.

but to be honest why should we play a game which forces me to go straight to the end with all people because there is no real other option? where is the coop when there is no real decision what to do? where is the benefit of exploring when you give more that you get in return?

maybe we have done somthing wrong with the actions. but this is the way I read the rules. maybe we should have pciked other skills to start with (less support, more attack or just pick better) but this again feels like you are on a rail. you have to pick this skill because the other will not help you in any way to win the scenario.

i really like the scenario, the drawing, the idea and imagination.
the personal memory for each char is great.but the memory strip from the hospital is the same for every char. so we had the sitatuation that 2 people draw the same story. that destroyed the atmosphere for me.

this could have been the game which i really like (i don't like zombicide that much). I think we will give it a second chance cause everyone liked the idea an atmosphere of the game. but I don't think that this will be a keeper.

to make it real playable this need a rework or a lot of houserules which makes me sad because I really wanted to love this game.
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Renjie Zhou
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Damn, now your making me sad.. backed everything.
 
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Magic Pink
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Saigetsu wrote:
Damn, now your making me sad.. backed everything.


It's one person's opinion that has played it once. I wouldn't throw stuff out just yet.
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Jonas Vanschooren
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Really hope there is more to this game then your first impressions, but they are everything I feared so far.
That together with the fact that there are no real 2 player rules that I know of (playing 2 characters each is something we detest) makes me very afraid this is gone be a fail for us.
 
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Alex Becker
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Played my first game tonight, too. I am really sad to say this, but with 3 players and another scenario, we had the same problems like Peter already wrote. At the end we skiped the game because we could not catch an kill the children.
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Fabian K
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I played the game a few times and am very happy with it.

I got what I expected. But I have to say, that I didn't back it on Kickstarter. I bought it at SPIEL in Essen AFTER playtesting it.

The objective of the game is to win the szenario you chose and not to collect as many memories and search as many lockers as possible. I understand that the temptation is big but you have to restrain yourself
You should try to reach lockers and memories on your way to your szenario objective. It won't work when you start with collecting for the first 2-3 rounds before you even begin to play for the szenario.

With Arnie on your team I don't see the problem in killing monster. He hits the enemies on a roll of 3+ (I think that's the reason why he only has two actions ) and you can loose one life point (and he got many of those) each turn to get an additional action.

In my opinion a boss monster in a co-op game has to be strong. I like it when I loose some szenarios at first and I have to improve my strategy to win.
A co-op-game where I win on first try lacks the challenge.

Concerning the warden: I would say that he's not meant to be killed. Your goal is to win the szenario before the warden (time counter) reaches the end.
In other games you just loose when you won't reach your goal in time. Here you got a tiny little chance to win the game even if you didn't win the szenario.

Although I can understand that some people won't like the game (especially when you get it without having the chance to test it before buying) I want to raise the hopes of people who are still waiting.
(Is there any game that everyone likes? whistle)

My girlfriend and I both like it. 2-player mode with playing two characters is not exactly brilliant but we're fine with it.

Give the game a chance and don't make up your mind before you played it yourself!
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Peter
Germany
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So you just confirm for me that you Don't have an option other than go to the boss and kill him.
I am fine with the warden. Thats an time limit. But in a coop i want to have a choice of what to do and not feel like i am on a railroad to follow.
If you are fine with it ok. But thats Not good game Design in my opinon.
The Same is for arnie. Not good Design if you have a must Char. Why even add more chars when There is no real option
 
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Sebastian Kozak
Poland
Szczecin
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Hi Peter

Here are some tweaks you can do to make a game a bit easier, faster and maybe more suitable for your group. Some of them also will land on the revised manual:

1. Remove a barricade door tokens with the highest value, the same with the locked door tokens.
2. Maximum 6 door tokens on each quarter. Put them as you want (highlighted places), you never know when objective or monster apperar, but put those tokens first (before randomizing other things).
3. Dont put body tokens on spots with lockers (only lockers are put there).
4. Put body token in the middle (pentagram) and one body token on each corridor (cross shaped main corridors) on the second last space of that corridor (counting from the middle to the edge of the board).
5. You can use Insanity to boost or to defend AFTER you make your attack (to see if it would be necessary) or AFTER monster attacked you (to not waste Insanity on the missed monster attack).

I hope you can give game one more chance with this tweaks.

Regards
Sebastian
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Felix Grundmann
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I see the points that some of you complain about, although I can´t share them.


@Game on rails
Each coop-game has an objective to complete to win the game, doesn´t matter what kind of game, you have to go for this objective. I think it´s not fair to complain about this. You can split up, some characters go after equipment and stuff, some characters go for the mission objective. I like this tough decision making.


@No two-player-rules
If you dislike playing more than one character, than I don´t understand why someone should buy a game that has a minimum of 3 characters. Especially because TFG said from the very beginning, that there simply will be no 2-player-rules.

From my point of view the game scales very good between 3, 4 and 5 characters. There are handicap levels, if you are less than 5 players, built directly into the missions. Additionally, if you are less than 5 players, you ignore the third monster spawn from the movement cards.


@Game difficulty
Lobotomy is no dungeon crawl, it´s no press-your-luck dice chucker and it is not an easy or forgiving game. It´s a lot of planning and action points management as well as skill management, which is essential! So far I have lost more than half of my games. I expect to lose two out of three games in the long run, winning one game out of three, based on normal difficulty playing two scenarios in one game. If this is frustrating to you, don´t buy this game! For me it´s the optimum. I don´t like games where I just walk around, can do what I want and still win without thinking about what I have to do.

@Easier game
Just want to add something to Sebastian suggestions I have already tried for a gaming group of mine that also preferes easier games. whistle Looks like we have had similiar ideas. laugh

These changes makes the game easier, especially the start and avoids early frustration. You don´t have to waste too many action points on doors and you have to fight less monsters if you are only 2 characters or even only 1 character. I also added some possibilities how to modify this game for 2 characters only and even with for 1 single character.

You can mix and match these modifications as you like.

At a later point, after some more playtesting, I might add additional modification-combinations customized for a two characters game and a one character game.

1. Remove the barricade door tokens with the values 6, 5 and 4 from the game. (4 tokens)
2. Remove the locked door tokens with the values 5 and 4 from the game. (4 tokens)
3. Remove the locker/cabinet tokens with only the values 5 and/or 4 from the game. (4 tokens)
4. Remove the body tokens without an equipment symbol from the game. (2 tokens)
5. Place one body token on the pentagram and one body token in each of the quarters on one highlighted/bright corridor place of your choice.
6. Don´t place a token on a weapon card if you roll at least one "1" result during a weapon attack. BUT you still have to pay any additional costs for upgrading the effects of a weapon attack AND for destroying barricaded doors.
7. If you are 2 characters, improve all your statistics by one. If you are 1 character, improve all your statistics by two and start the game with the Backpack, the Evacuation Plan, the Hospital Scrubs and the Key Card as additional equipment for free. If you are 1 character, you get 3 free additional action points during running instead of the regular 2.
8. If you are 2 or 1 character[s], ignore the second and third monster spawn on the movement cards.
9. If you are 2 or 1 character[s], you don´t have to spent an action point for these actions: to search a locker, to search a body, to reveal a door and to pick up a memory token.
10. If you are 2 or 1 character[s] you can decrease the cooldown of one or more skills by one for each killed monster.


Regards
GeneralGrundmann
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Jonas Vanschooren
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GeneralGrundmann wrote:



@No two-player-rules
If you dislike playing more than one character, than I don´t understand why someone should buy a game that has a minimum of 3 characters. Especially because TFG said from the very beginning, that there simply will be no 2-player-rules.



Untrue, they kept hinting there would be real solo rules and 2 player rules during the kickstarter. It was not till the kickstarter ended they just ended al effort in that regard.
 
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Felix Grundmann
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Spukky wrote:
GeneralGrundmann wrote:


@No two-player-rules
If you dislike playing more than one character, than I don´t understand why someone should buy a game that has a minimum of 3 characters. Especially because TFG said from the very beginning, that there simply will be no 2-player-rules.


Untrue, they kept hinting there would be real solo rules and 2 player rules during the kickstarter. It was not till the kickstarter ended they just ended al effort in that regard.


Perhaps than we understand "real solo play" and/or "2 player-rules" differently.

You can play the game totaly alone (solo) or with 2 players only.

In this case, one or more players will have to play more than one character.

If you did understand "solo play" as playing with only 1 character and "2 player rules" as playing with only 2 characters than I see your point.

You can play the game with one or two players, but not with only 1 or 2 characters. And I don´t see that this was hinted anywhere during the kickstarter, but I may be wrong.

In my book we have real single-player and real two player rules, because the game is playable alone or with two players.


Regards
GeneralGrundmann
 
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Peter
Germany
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I dont care for the missing two player rules. Thats is okay for me.

Ich didnt count the doors. So it seems that we really had a Bad draw.

The "fiddly" rules is also okay for me. Thats something which will get better. Maybe a overview will help.

I think we will houserule the player order and remove some of the hardess doors. Further we will remove the additional action for us use of Memory tokens.

Maybe we will remove the action to reveal doors. But still need an action to unlock a door.

Further loot Would maybe also bei an idea. Draw a med card for a killed nurse for Example.

I didnt talk on the good sides Yet. The cooldown system is nice. But i Suggest to do it at Start of players turn for all chars. Otherwise you might forget it.
 
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Jonas Vanschooren
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GeneralGrundmann wrote:


In my book we have real single-player and real two player rules, because the game is playable alone or with two players.


Regards
GeneralGrundmann

And in my book we don't.

And yes they said that they where working on solo rules that would make this playable with just 1 character and 2 player rules that would allow for 1 character for each player.
The fact they didn't is a big slap in the face for backers like me that backed this solo on their word that they where working on incorporating those rules.

 
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Felix Grundmann
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Spukky wrote:
GeneralGrundmann wrote:


In my book we have real single-player and real two player rules, because the game is playable alone or with two players.


Regards
GeneralGrundmann

And in my book we don't.

And yes they said that they where working on solo rules that would make this playable with just 1 character and 2 player rules that would allow for 1 character for each player.
The fact they didn't is a big slap in the face for backers like me that backed this solo on their word that they where working on incorporating those rules.



Ah, okay, thanks for the clarification.

Than I must have overlooked these statements or I forgot about it.

On the kickstarter page the following is written in the FAQ:

"How does solo play work?

There are two options for a single player playthrough. Either taking any number of characters and cotrolling all of them, which allowes you to test all the modes. Second consideration is taking single characters for a single scenario and trying to beat them or just test what works best in them.
Last updated: Di, 4. Aug 2015 16:58 CEST"

If something else was hinted by TFG in the updates and/or the comments, I haven´t found it on a glance but you sound very sure about what you say. In this situation I can understand your negative feelings.


Regards
GeneralGrundmann
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Felix Grundmann
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jocom wrote:

Further loot Would maybe also bei an idea. Draw a med card for a killed nurse for Example.

I didnt talk on the good sides Yet. The cooldown system is nice. But i Suggest to do it at Start of players turn for all chars. Otherwise you might forget it.


This is something I would also greatly appreciate. cool

I toyed around with this idea.


Loot: After your character killed a monster that was on the same space you take one die and roll for loot.

Mental Patient: On a "6" you draw one Meds-Card.
Scavenger: On a "5" or "6" you draw one Meds-Card.
The Nurse: On a "4", "5" or "6" you draw one Meds-Card.

Orderly/Slasher: On a "3", "4", "5" or "6" you draw one Weapons-Card.
Little Girl/Twins: On a "3", "4", "5" or "6" you draw one Equipment-Card.

Body Snatcher/Vampire/Witch: On a "2", "3", "4", "5" or "6" you draw one card from each of the three inventory decks and keep one card of your choice, discard the other two cards.

The Clown/Big Mama/Baba Yaga/Antichrist/Frankenstein´s Monster: You get loot without rolling for it. Draw one card from each of the three inventory decks and keep all three cards.


Of course these changes would make the game easier, but successfull fights might get rewarded, scaled towards the difficulty of the enemies.


Regards
GeneralGrundmann
 
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Peter
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As this is more rpg like than zombicide i think loot makes sense. Maybe you drop a body token instead of the Initial ones for each monster killed instead of rolling. Also it takes you an action to search the body which makes sense.
With the durabilty of weapons you are always desperate for items.
This is also something i really like in the game.
Unlike zombicide where you may find a good weapon at the Start and may never change it again
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Felix Grundmann
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jocom wrote:
As this is more rpg like than zombicide i think loot makes sense. Maybe you drop a body token instead of the Initial ones for each monster killed instead of rolling. Also it takes you an action to search the body which makes sense.
With the durabilty of weapons you are always desperate for items.
This is also something i really like in the game.
Unlike zombicide where you may find a good weapon at the Start and may never change it again


Excellent idea! cool
And because the number of body tokens is limited at 8 the players will have to pick the loot tokens up.
I would perhaps still randomize the chance that a body token is dropped to respect the different danger levels of the enemies.

Loot: After your character killed a monster you take one die and roll if the monster drops one or more body token[s].

Mental Patient/Scavenger/The Nurse: On a "5" or "6" the monster drops one body token.

Orderly/Slasher/Little Girl/Twins: On a "3" or "4" the monster drops one body token. On a "5" or "6" the monster drops two body tokens.

Body Snatcher/Vampire/Witch: On a "1" or "2" the monster drops one body token. On a "3" or "4" the monster drops two body tokens. On a "5" or "6" the monster drops three body tokens.

The Clown/Big Mama/Baba Yaga/Antichrist/Frankenstein´s Monster: Without rolling for it, the monster drops five body tokens.


I really LOVE this mechanic!


Regards
GeneralGrundmann
 
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Peter
Germany
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Too fiddley and time consuming. As the body token already have a Chance of failure keep it simple. One enemy one body token. If all tokens are Used
Reshuffle. If all tokens are on the board you simply get nothing.

It isnt fun when you roll a success your roll for a body tokem only to uncover that the body holds nothing
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Felix Grundmann
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We are already in the house-rules-department, I prefere having difference body token drop-chances based on the power level of the slain monster and it´s only one roll for each killed monster.

For me, the simpelst way is not always the best way. cool

But this is nothing to argue about as it comes down to personal taste.

And yes, that a body token might contain nothing is statistically a 25%-chance but I can take this without being frustrated. whistle


Regards
GeneralGrundmann
 
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chang chang

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I`m liking the sound of this loot drop system lol.
@GG have it playtested by the time I get my game LOL
 
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John Di Ponio
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I just acquired a copy of the game. Well, when it arrives in the states. It is going to be a Christmas present for one of my boys this year so I have time for them (or me) to fix rules, cards, etc.
 
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PaYa Hanák
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Quote:
first action of everyone was to get an imaginary locker to get some more stuff. than we spread a little bit to get some memory tokens and some more stuff. was first game. we wanter to see some stuff.

As far as I remember, you can't search for imaginary lockers, until the wardens reaches b1 (ie you can't use it, if it's a single scenario).
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Sebastian Beck
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I am on the other side. I am so surprised by this game. Fantastic.

Yes, we need a new rulebook but this game is dripping with theme. Once you get over the rules it has so many neat concepts:


+ Insmonia track is a nice push-your-luck and pressure mechanic
+ nice search-system - I hate games where you can search unlimited times - this way it is done so right; love it
+ Memory-Cards: great level-up mechanic with flavour
+ very dark theme: Man, these monsters are tough and brutal (the Slashers are a gaming nightmare - in this game you want to try to avoid as many combats as possible
+ great choices in this game (which skills to use? taking insanity damage?)
+ wonderul developed mechanics into the setting - did i already say that this game is dripping with theme?
+ fantastic board design - it is so easy to draw LOS etc.
+ great distinctive player roles because of skills etc.
+ monster movement is easy
+ stellar artwork
+ brutal difficulty
+ multi-scenario-approach in one game-shot is very innovative


- luck based - without any skills and weapons you are lost
- rulebook is badly organized - you will lose a lot of potential players here
- the spots where to put markers on (game board) is difficult to decipher in some cases
All in all: Stellar game! This game needs positive buzz now! It is so unique and one of the best themed miniatures games out there.
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amanwing
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I still try to decide if I need this. It sounds not good enough to be worth it but what do you guys think makes this game special? What does it better than other games?
 
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Bryce K. Nielsen
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Elk Ridge
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I haven't played it yet, but I did back it, and the reason was the theme. Aside from Zombie games, I don't have that many horror games. This game is dripping with horror. The figures looked good enough, and cooperative gameplay is big with my group, so with those three ticks, I took the jump on getting the game. I really hope it doesn't turn out like Dark Darker Darkest...

-shnar
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