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Sekigahara: The Unification of Japan» Forums » Rules

Subject: Loyalty Challenge & Tokugawa Ieyasu rss

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J B
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I don't see anywhere in the rules where it disallows this, but:

Can you play a Loyalty Challenge on Tokugawa Ieyasu and force him to be the first casualty if they fail it (assuming you get at least 7 impact in the battle)?
 
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Ian Smith
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A leader block deploys without playing a card. A loyalty challenge would be defeated as the opponent would have to show you no card to refute the challenge. Hence the rule 'Leaders who deploy without a card are immune from Loyalty Challenge' (8.2.4)

( Although the concept of Tokugawa Ieyasu betraying himself made me giggle.)


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Rusty McFisticuffs
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iansmithksa wrote:
A leader block deploys without playing a card.

...unless that side has already used cards to deploy one or more blocks, in which case deploying the leader also requires a card.
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Hugues Richard
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Quote:
Can you play a Loyalty Challenge on Tokugawa Ieyasu and force him to be the first casualty if they fail it (assuming you get at least 7 impact in the battle)?

Even if you don't have 7 but still win. This happened at Okehazama. Imagawa said "but you can't challenge my own block with that card" Oda responded "sure, you didn't deploy free at the start of the battle" and the rest is history.
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Ian Smith
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kuhrusty wrote:
iansmithksa wrote:
A leader block deploys without playing a card.

...unless that side has already used cards to deploy one or more blocks, in which case deploying the leader also requires a card.



If he deployed after other blocks that required cards for deployment, the challenge could be refuted by showing any card. If Tokugawa deployed without card cover, and was challenged with a loyalty test, then yes, he would be a first casualty, committing Seppuku for being a complete ****.
 
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J B
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iansmithksa wrote:
If he deployed after other blocks that required cards for deployment, the challenge could be refuted by showing any card. If Tokugawa deployed without card cover, and was challenged with a loyalty test, then yes, he would be a first casualty, committing Seppuku for being a complete ****.


Why would it be "any card" to refute the Loyalty Challenge and not have to be one with the correct mon that matches the challenged daimyo's symbol?
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Snapcase wrote:
iansmithksa wrote:
If he deployed after other blocks that required cards for deployment, the challenge could be refuted by showing any card. If Tokugawa deployed without card cover

Why would it be "any card" to refute the Loyalty Challenge and not have to be one with the correct mon that matches the challenged daimyo's symbol?

Oops, yeah, he's thinking of Ishida, not Tokugawa.
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Benji
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The block does not represent just a leader. I would interpret such an event as his most trusted troops betraying him - which seems totally possible.
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Ian Smith
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kuhrusty wrote:
Snapcase wrote:
iansmithksa wrote:
If he deployed after other blocks that required cards for deployment, the challenge could be refuted by showing any card. If Tokugawa deployed without card cover

Why would it be "any card" to refute the Loyalty Challenge and not have to be one with the correct mon that matches the challenged daimyo's symbol?

Oops, yeah, he's thinking of Ishida, not Tokugawa.


This, Ooops, wrong general, looks like the complete **** is me!
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Zoltan Geffert
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Her is the rule to back it up:
"8.2.4 Initial Deployment of a Leader Block
A leader block deploys without playing a card if no deployments have yet been made with a card by that side in the present combat. Leaders who deploy without a card are immune from Loyalty Challenge (see 8.6)."

Ishida can lose the challenge if the player has run out of cards.

And why hide the leaders? There might be a reason to keep their presence secret and only reveal them in serious need for survival or to win a battle.
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