Jonathan Abbott
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In our game we played this week we had a bit of an issue regarding the target of the ghost ship from Event E. The 'X' marker from the initial sinking is at the island in the first column of the map. When the ghost ship event resolved there were three ships at their home provinces. There was also one ship in one of the other hexes in that same column, though if you were counting distance straight up the column it was a good 5-6 hexes away. The problem came in when you took the Coastal Waters into account. By the movement rules the ship in the first sea column and all the ships at their home provinces were all 2 spaces away from the ghost ship. The ship in the sea hex belonged to the player with the highest prominence, so all things being equal that ship should have been the target. But it didn't feel right to us to say the ghost ship went into the Coastal Waters, crossed almost the entire length of the board and then went back into the sea hex to target that particular ship. So in the moment we ruled that the ship in port with the highest prominence was the target.

What are other peoples' opinion on this? How would you have ruled? Has anyone made a definitive ruling on how Coastal Waters are regarded when determining distance for targets of events?
 
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Will
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Do you play with a variant rule that you're not allowed to sail to coastal waters and then back out to sea across the board? If yes, then that seems correct for your game. If no, what precludes the card from doing the same?
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Matt S
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Coastal Waters in the important terminology part of the rule book says that it is the long space between the home harbors and the open sea. It is one space, and I have not seen anywhere in the rules where it says to treat it otherwise.
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David desJardins
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I'm sorry it doesn't "feel right" to compute distance by counting how many spaces you have to move through to get from one space to another. But that's how it works.
 
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Jonathan Abbott
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Will: No we aren't playing with a variant. Nothing precludes it other than it just coming across really wonky to all of us.

David: I'm sorry, is there a setting that allows one to requests answers without the barrel full of snark? Geez man, turn the arsehole meter down a few notches.
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David desJardins
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I truly am sorry. I regret that it doesn't feel right to you and there's no better answer.
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Will
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abbottj83 wrote:
Will: No we aren't playing with a variant. Nothing precludes it other than it just coming across really wonky to all of us.

David: I'm sorry, is there a setting that allows one to requests answers without the barrel full of snark? Geez man, turn the arsehole meter down a few notches.

That was a pretty tame level for David
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The Chaz
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DaviddesJ wrote:
I'm sorry it doesn't "feel right" to compute distance by counting how many spaces you have to move through to get from one space to another. But that's how it works.


Normally I wouldn't jump in when someone is being a condescending know-it-all, but I am so triggered right now! Two reasons:

1) A friend mentioned that someone was acting unkind on the Seafall forums, and I KNEW IT WAS YOU before I came here.

2) You're just wrong. "That's how it works" implies that you're some sort of subject matter expert on distance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metric_(mathematics)
(see #4 in the definition)

So please, kind sir, explain to me why distance in this part of the map contradicts the triangle inquality. (Let x = the middle space in the first column of hexes, y = the open waters space, and z = the northern-most space in the first column of hexes)

The distance that you are mandating from on-high (and rudely imposing on the forums) is not a distance. It is counter-intuitive. It doesn't work.

So let's bring it down a notch, or at least leave room for the rest of us to be complete tools.

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David desJardins
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The Chaz wrote:
So please, kind sir, explain to me why distance in this part of the map contradicts the triangle inquality.


The distance function in this game doesn't violate the triangle inequality.

If you count the minimum number of spaces to get from A to B, and add the minimum number of spaces to get from B to C, that's always at least as large as the number of spaces to get from A to C.

Quote:
Let x = the middle space in the first column of hexes, y = the open waters space, and z = the northern-most space in the first column of hexes.


Then d(x,y) = 1, d(y,z) = 1, and d(x,z) = 2. 1 + 1 <= 2, so the inequality holds.
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The Chaz
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So we have to use a new notion of distance? Ok.

For those not tracking with the heavy lifting,

Quote:
IF WE USE DAVID'S NEW METRIC, Then d(x,y) = 1, d(y,z) = 1, and d(x,z) = 2. 1 + 1 <= 2, so the inequality holds.


It just seems inappropriate to chastise someone who doesn't use your novel, undefined distance formula.
 
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JR Honeycutt
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abbottj83 wrote:
Spoiler (click to reveal)
In our game we played this week we had a bit of an issue regarding the target of the ghost ship from Event E. The 'X' marker from the initial sinking is at the island in the first column of the map. When the ghost ship event resolved there were three ships at their home provinces. There was also one ship in one of the other hexes in that same column, though if you were counting distance straight up the column it was a good 5-6 hexes away. The problem came in when you took the Coastal Waters into account. By the movement rules the ship in the first sea column and all the ships at their home provinces were all 2 spaces away from the ghost ship. The ship in the sea hex belonged to the player with the highest prominence, so all things being equal that ship should have been the target. But it didn't feel right to us to say the ghost ship went into the Coastal Waters, crossed almost the entire length of the board and then went back into the sea hex to target that particular ship. So in the moment we ruled that the ship in port with the highest prominence was the target.

What are other peoples' opinion on this? How would you have ruled? Has anyone made a definitive ruling on how Coastal Waters are regarded when determining distance for targets of events?


Before everybody sets each other's hair on fire, I'll say that yes, the ghost ship determines distance the same way a player would if they were moving. So yeah, they'll scoot around the easily-navigable coastal waters to wreck shop on the high seas.

Sorry for confusion - the coastal waters and their definitions were a part of late development (as was the event deck) and we could have done a better job writing strict definitions for those things. Mea culpa.

--

Charles and David, be sure to consider sails and guns as garrisons before you raid each other in the forums! And make sure you have enough enmity tokens to match the sizes of your hulls
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Jonathan Abbott
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Thanks JR, that is how we all thought the RAW would interpret it. We just all didn't like the way that fit as far as the "flavor" of the story text went and that caused us to have doubt on it. I think we might house rule it in order to fit with the narrative the way we are feeling it, but it is very nice to have a general ruling on that basic concept for any future related issues.
 
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David desJardins
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The map could be drawn as more of a fan than a rectangle to make the distances seem more intuitive. That wouldn't fit as well on folded cardboard, of course, which is why it's drawn like this.
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Matt S
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jayahre wrote:
Charles and David, be sure to consider sails and guns as garrisons before you raid each other in the forums! And make sure you have enough enmity tokens to match the sizes of your hulls


But JR I keep spending all my enmity tokens raiding you that I forgot to save it for the others. arrrharrrharrrharrrh
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Robin Baksh
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One way to "make it feel better" is to remember that flat maps are always wrong for large distances (assuming Seafall is on a round planet and not on a flat world where water flows off the edge in a sort of "Seafall").

Another way to think of it is that the hexes are not spaces of equal area, but actually equal travel time. Most hexes are the same travel time to traverse, but the coastal waters is much faster (my theory is some kind bi directional wind tunnel effect).
 
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Guido Heinecke
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We had an odd situation: One player missed the game, so, according to the rules, his ships were put into his province.

When the Ghost Ship looks for the nearest ship to attack, does it ignore any absent players? We house ruled "yes", because otherwise that event would have been quite stupid for us - the Ghost Ship would always raid him, working as a "shield". The "X" is on the spot next to that player's province (even better: in another players province space, since he sunk another players ship in his home base).
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Becq Starforged
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Hieken wrote:
When the Ghost Ship looks for the nearest ship to attack, does it ignore any absent players? We house ruled "yes", because otherwise that event would have been quite stupid for us - the Ghost Ship would always raid him, working as a "shield". The "X" is on the spot next to that player's province (even better: in another players province space, since he sunk another players ship in his home base).

I believe the intention is that the player's ships are potential targets, though I agree that this seems strange for the event in question. I guess you can enjoy the momentary reprieve, at least both ships are sunk? Note that there won't be any negative impact on the missing player...
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Michael Albert
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The rules states that if a player his absent his ships are still placed in the harbor. His province (and ships) are still a viable raid targets.

If his ships happen to be the closest to the 'x' then why not? If another player was to raid his council room to steal a research card or his kept adviser they would still provide defense. If one of those ships happen to get sunk by the ghost ship then it would even make it slightly easier for someone to do this.
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Becq Starforged
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We haven't had a missing player yet, so this rule hasn't been tested. And while I understand the need for this sort of rule (because the missing player might be holding some item that is necessary for game progression[*]), I don't like the idea that a player can lose their stuff with no chance of defending themselves or retaliating. In particular, it seems punitive that a player might have his advisor stolen, and be forced to start the next game without one, even though if that had happened in a normal game, he simply would have kept a different remaining advisor.

Has anyone had experience with this, and found a reasonable fix (or found that no fix was needed)? Perhaps by dealing the player a random replacement of the same type of card lost?

[*] Like, for example, the (Box 2&4 spoilers)
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Strange Map, without which Box 4 is unlockable
.
 
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