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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: Board 17 D1 to O5 rss

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Dan Huffman
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My opponent and I are in a disagreement. So I leave it to the community to say which is correct.


Can D1 see O5?

1) No because the Building in E2 creates a one blind hex an therefore they cannot see each other.
2) Yes because both hexes are Level 1 and there are no intervening Level 1 hexes (with obstructions) in between them.
3) Your explanation here

To my opponent: I hope I was faithful in my explanation of your argument. Feel free to reword, as you see fit. :-)

Thanks in advance to any who answer.




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Russ Williams
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huffman123 wrote:
My opponent and I are in a disagreement. So I leave it to the community to say which is correct.


Can D1 see O5?

1) No because the Building in E2 creates a one blind hex an therefore they cannot see each other.
2) Yes because both hexes are Level 1 and there are no intervening Level 1 hexes (with obstructions) in between them.

Assuming that both hexes really are level 1 (it's hard to tell with the units on them) then answer 2 seems obviously correct.

Answer 1 seems clearly wrong since blind hexes are irrelevant when the attacker and target are on the same level:

CC rules wrote:
T88.4.1 Blind Hexes
A unit on a Hill can see into a lower-level
Woods or Building hex, as normal, but can
not see into the next hex beyond it if that
next hex is also at or lower than the Woods/
Building hex’s elevation. In other words, a
lower-level Woods or Building creates a
one-hex blind zone behind it to an observer
at a higher elevation—all hexes beyond this
blind zone are visible from the Hill (barring
further Woods/Buildings along the way).

A unit on a level 1 Hill can see past a level 0
building except into the level 0 hex directly
behind it. Conversely, a unit on a level 1
Hill could see past an intervening level 1
building to a unit at level 2 or higher unless
that building was in the first intervening
hex along that LOS.
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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huffman123 wrote:
My opponent and I are in a disagreement. So I leave it to the community to say which is correct.


Can D1 see O5?

1) No because the Building in E2 creates a one blind hex an therefore they cannot see each other.
2) Yes because both hexes are Level 1 and there are no intervening Level 1 hexes (with obstructions) in between them.
3) Your explanation here

To my opponent: I hope I was faithful in my explanation of your argument. Feel free to reword, as you see fit. :-)

Thanks in advance to any who answer.




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Marty Sample
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Both Level 1, so Blond hexes are irrelevant. They can see each other.
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Chris Montgomery
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#2 is correct. They see each other. You can clearly see that both counters are on Level 1 terrain.
 
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Mark Buetow
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So, Dan, what was the argument against there being LOS there? Just curious.
 
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Russ Williams
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Malacandra wrote:
So, Dan, what was the argument against there being LOS there? Just curious.


He said it in the original post:

Quote:
1) No because the Building in E2 creates a one blind hex an therefore they cannot see each other.
 
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Mark Buetow
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russ wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
So, Dan, what was the argument against there being LOS there? Just curious.


He said it in the original post:

Quote:
1) No because the Building in E2 creates a one blind hex an therefore they cannot see each other.


Yeah, but I'm curious what the reasoning was behind suggesting it since that's so clearly not the rule on how blind hexes work. I mean, maybe he was thinking building are considered Level 1 or something.
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Confusion Under Fire
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russ wrote:

Assuming that both hexes really are level 1 (it's hard to tell with the units on them) then answer 2 seems obviously correct.

Answer 1 seems clearly wrong since blind hexes are irrelevant when the attacker and target are on the same level:



This is the crux of the matter, if the units involved are actually both on level 1. If either one, or both units, were not on level 1, then the LOS would be blocked.
 
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Russ Williams
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whatambush wrote:
This is the crux of the matter, if the units involved are actually both on level 1. If either one, or both units, were not on level 1, then the LOS would be blocked.

Actually if D1 were on level 1 and O5 were on level 0, then the LOS would not be blocked; O5 is not directly behind a hex with a building, unlike D1!
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Confusion Under Fire
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russ wrote:
whatambush wrote:
This is the crux of the matter, if the units involved are actually both on level 1. If either one, or both units, were not on level 1, then the LOS would be blocked.

Actually if D1 were on level 1 and O5 were on level 0, then the LOS would not be blocked; O5 is not directly behind a hex with a building, unlike D1!


Oh of course, just having a senior moment
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Chris Montgomery
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I checked my map #17 in my copy of Mediterranean just to be sure.

To put all speculation to rest, BOTH hexes are CLEARLY on Level 1 terrain.

This seems to be a simple matter of one player being rather obstinate in a case where the rules are very clear and there really should be no argument.

Having been an obstinate player in the past myself (and probably in the future), have your opponent say ten Hail Kais, perform one act of contrition to appease the wargame gods, forgive him or her, and move on.
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Dan Huffman
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Malacandra wrote:
So, Dan, what was the argument against there being LOS there? Just curious.


He did not realize that D1 was on a Level 1 Hill. On Vassal with a unit there, it is an easy mistake to make. I didn't understand that he was saying that. I'm sure I seemed obstinate, despite his very good and very clear examples of the 2nd hex being downhill.

All turned out well and we continued once the error was identified. :-)
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Gary Logs
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I don't have this expansion map, what terrain effect does the thick border on some buildings provide? My initial guess was going to be level 2 (with open interior LOS).
 
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Dan Huffman
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ncree wrote:
I don't have this expansion map, what terrain effect does the thick border on some buildings provide? My initial guess was going to be level 2 (with open interior LOS).


This is from the Stalingrad Pack. So I think you are talking about buildings that can be considered "Factories"
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Gary Logs
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What terrain effect does a "factory" have?
 
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Mark Buetow
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ncree wrote:
What terrain effect does a "factory" have?


In Stalingrad, buildings designated as "Factories" allow you to shoot inside the building, even if factory building hexes are intervening. (It's a 3 Hindrance, I believe).
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Gary Logs
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Malacandra wrote:
ncree wrote:
What terrain effect does a "factory" have?


In Stalingrad, buildings designated as "Factories" have allow you to shoot inside building, even if building hexes are intervening. (It's a 3 Hindrance, I believe).


Thanks, at least I guessed close on the LOS aspect.
 
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Mark Buetow
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ncree wrote:
Malacandra wrote:
ncree wrote:
What terrain effect does a "factory" have?


In Stalingrad, buildings designated as "Factories" have allow you to shoot inside building, even if building hexes are intervening. (It's a 3 Hindrance, I believe).


Thanks, at least I guessed close on the LOS aspect.


Also, to further clarify, the Factory designation is made by the scenario special rules and is indicated by a "Factory" chit placed on the building. The thicker lines have nothing to do with it. In this thread's OP map, there are no factories. (This is Map 17 from Mediterranea. I think that scenario shown is "Little Stalingrad" with the Canadians.)
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