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Martians: A Story of Civilization» Forums » General

Subject: Martians : a story of Civilization... Competitive ? Hum... rss

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philippe C.
France
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Hello,

I tried to play in competitive mode (4 players) and if i think MSC is a really good game in coop. In competitive... No, or i miss something, have you tried it ? For me the problem is in coop the game have to be tough with players, we fight the game together but in Comp. we fight each other so when the game begin to fight against players, in Comp. often one player pay the cost not all :

- Event : too much ramdom... You plan a strategy and bad luck an event destroy it, you can do anything to predict it. In Coop it's good, it makes fun, in comp. it makes the game unbalanced... penalize one player only because of bad luck... You can loose and do anything against it... no fun.

- Meteo : the same, luck... One player use in he begining wind energy, the other solar energy, and... windy time ! Only luck... The game favor one player... What can i do nothing... Only luck, you choose the good or bad one but no strategy in the begining.

- Regolit cards : In comp. it's important because you make a lot of points with it, with the contracts cards and... again... the luck choose the winner... You take blank card... looser... you take crystals cards and crystals there are on contract cards, you are the winner ! What have you done for that ? Only luck... very bad thing...

- I can read on BGG that all resources are limited... But in comp. often nobody goes to remove construction token, or few times, so regolit disappear from the bank... stuck in front of players boards... Without it we can't take regolit cards, without it we can't make contracts... In coop no problem, we're going to build with regolit. And it's really not thematic... ho... no more sand on Mars... what, really ?

- When we do contracts we have to discard regolit cards ... So round 4 : no more regolit cards, we can't do contract anymore, but no more regolit tokens too... So forget about contract, few tokens removed from buildings so the game get stuck... We stop the game round 4, no more fun...

So have you feel the same way ? I'm disapointed... And a friend of mine was right "be careful, it's a coop game, not competitive, it became competitive but wasn't before people ask for it, it's not going to work".

I think it's true... Martians a story of civilization i'm sure is a great coop. game, you like it ? Go buy it, but don't if you want competitive one. Because all the issues in comp mode come from good things in coop game.


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Claudio Coppini
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I haven't tried it yet competitive so I can't give you my opinion, but in regard to the following:

Quote:
Meteo : the same, luck... One player use in he begining wind energy, the other solar energy, and... windy time ! Only luck... The game favor one player... What can i do nothing... Only luck, you choose the good or bad one but no strategy in the begining.


You can develop the weather report technology in order to know in advance what weather is coming.

Quote:
- Regolit cards : In comp. it's important because you make a lot of points with it, with the contracts cards and... again... the luck choose the winner... You take blank card... looser... you take crystals cards and crystals there are on contract cards, you are the winner ! What have you done for that ? Only luck... very bad thing...


When I play competitive I'll definitely leave out the blank cards.
Also, if you find yourself unlucky with the regolith card draws, I guess a good idea would be to hire the Soil Analyst.
 
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philippe C.
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For the meteo, sure we can predict but... Predict what : "Windy time ! You picked the wrong energy source..."

Yes remove blank card seems to be a good idea, but quickly there is no cards to draw... Can't do contract...

I'm sure this game is not for competitive, i think it wasn't a good choice to sell the game telling we can play competitive, it is a great coop game so made quickly a competitive game was a mistake for me, disapointed some players...
 
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Claudio Coppini
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Quote:
For the meteo, sure we can predict but... Predict what : "Windy time ! You picked the wrong energy source..."


Well knowing it in advance can still give you time to adapt.
Also you can build the installation after checking the weather.

As I said I still can't comment on the competitive, as I've only played solo so far, but I'm looking forward to trying the semi-coop with other players, I have the impression that might be the mode where this game shines.
 
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philippe C.
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Yes, you can, for example, build a windmill... But the player who pick up a windmill before have an advantage, not because his strategy is better, only because is lucky... When you like euro games, competitive, you hate these situations.

And if we play coop, that's ok, i'm using my friend windmill, and it's fun, because thematic. You have a great coop game, it's a good thing, but you can have a good competitive game in the same time...
 
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David Turczi
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Yup. We've played a competitive game, got a ton of rules wrong, I hated the game. But the theme/mechanism combo intrigues me, so I want to give it another chance. But philippe so nicely summed up my problems with it, so maybe I will try semi-coop...
 
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Claudio Coppini
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Cool, I understand your concerns, looking forward to trying competitive myself to form an opinion.

To get back to the weather issue, I guess another solution is to build two solar installations and the solar cells technology early for example, so that even if the sandstorm gets drawn you would still get 4 energy (instead of 2 without the solar cells).
 
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philippe C.
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@david : thanks for the "nicely", we agree... I think you can forget semi-coop too...

@claudio : yes you can do that but the problem is always the same, you are using actions to fight... unbalanced luck when another player will be happy to be lucky, using actions to fight the game is good when you play coop, thematic, but not in comp. You find solution but the mechanism stays....

Again i'm sure is really great coop, and it's my mistake, the only thing i regret is the choice to say it can be competitive but it's not, only to sell more, but people buy something and get something else... I buy a comp. game and i have "only" a great coop. game... I will be very careful about this kind of situation in the future...

And again, i keep it, because one day i will play with some friends who want coop... And for coop, i'm going to pick this one !
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Claudio Coppini
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Sure, I understand that.

It's something though that you might have guessed before-hand, a euro game with event cards will undoubtedly bring some randomness that other games don't have. Maybe somebody will come up with a variant that can address this.

I think that in Agricola too for example there's a similar situation, where you might be lucky and draw occupations and minor improvements that work very well with each other, while other players have cards that don't combo much (unless you draft of course).
 
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philippe C.
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draft... yes. In Agricola you always find a way, you have to adapt, it's not the same. here it's pure luck... Euro-gamers like to construct, make strategy.... When it's useless because another player can do better than you because he was lucky and you can do nothing... It's not good... Martians is not light... So people interested in this kind of game don't want luck in competitive...

 
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Claudio Coppini
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True that, as I said hopefully soon we can think of a variant that mitigates the luck. Heck, you could even play without the events in competitive imo.
 
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philippe C.
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No, i think it's impossible, competitive never be good we need :

- Find something for the luck with event, meteo and crytals cards (ho 2 cards, ho 8 points great, next player : ho 2 cards... blank, bank...)
- Find something for Regolit tokens, how use it ? We need it to come back in game for contracts...
- Find something for construction, something not cooperative...

No, forget it, there is a lot of very good competitive game, let's play this game in coop it's what it is.
 
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Davide Pellacani
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Played yesterday for the first time, comp. in 4, we found the same problems described by Phillipe, furthermore we finished the Energy tokens and we decided to use other pieces in addition (I've a solar cell and I can't produce energy due to lack of tokens?).
The worst by our point of view was the fact that at the beginning of cycle 4, all regolith inspection cards were finished, so no possibility to acquire points with commissions card, and almost every other source of reputation was exhausted.
I'll try in coop. to give it a further chance.
 
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philippe C.
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I'm not going to play coop soon, so i will be happy to read what you will say about coop mode.
 
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Davide Pellacani
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chaps31 wrote:
I'm not going to play coop soon, so i will be happy to read what you will say about coop mode.

This week end I'll try it and after I'll post the impression of the group.
 
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Teik Chooi Oh
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Hoping to play my first game this weekend, which was going to be competitive but this thread is putting me off.

I understand weather can be mitigated especially if you build both types of energy production.

I don't like limited energy or other supply as Mars doesn't run out of energy or sand, as aptly put above. So likely play with variant using markers to mark pieces.

Can Contracts be recycled to allow everyone chance to obtain some?

Anyway, reading all of above, perhaps should consider playing it cooperatively eventually, but I prefer a competitive game so will try this first.
 
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David Turczi
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Well, had I known it was a "mostly coop" game, I probably wouldn't have bought it (my fault for not researching), but now I guess I'll suck it up and play it coop. Rather than annoy myself through comp again
 
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Teik Chooi Oh
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TDaver wrote:
Well, had I known it was a "mostly coop" game, I probably wouldn't have bought it (my fault for not researching), but now I guess I'll suck it up and play it coop. Rather than annoy myself through comp again


Am in similar mindset, having bought it for competitive, or at least semi-coop ie jointly accomplishing scenario but only 1 winner. Still, will give it a try, using some variants like removing 0 resource cards and unlimited energy. Can't do much about weather being harsh unless want to remove all negative ones?

Going to try at Mid-Con this weekend. Will feedback!
 
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Claudio Coppini
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Haven't played competitively yet, but I'm not sure how the regolith markers can deplete that fast. They are used for some essential actions in the game, what's the point in not using them?
 
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Teik Chooi Oh
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I meant the 'blank/zero' regolith cards you could draw. I plan to remove them so you always get something.
 
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Claudio Coppini
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chooi wrote:
I meant the 'blank/zero' regolith cards you could draw. I plan to remove them so you always get something.


I know, I was referring to the OP following statement:

Quote:
I can read on BGG that all resources are limited... But in comp. often nobody goes to remove construction token, or few times, so regolit disappear from the bank...
 
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philippe C.
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In our comp game we never upgrade building, we didn't remove "upgrade", because we didn't want to make this gift to the next player. Regolit is used only for that purpose, so if you don't do it, regolit never come back... And you can't go to extract it again and you can't make contract and the game is broken...

I'm not really pleased to say that, but Martians a story of civilization is a good coop game that's all, only because Redimp wanted more customers they quickly made the comp game, it was a huge mistake, because now, a lot of people have doubt about this game, if Rdimp didn't do that everybody would be happy about this game...
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Teik Chooi Oh
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Played our first game, competitive and had no issues. We did take out blank Regolith cards. We all did upgrade as way to get points too. Looking forward to trying again
 
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Claudio Coppini
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chaps31 wrote:
In our comp game we never upgrade building, we didn't remove "upgrade", because we didn't want to make this gift to the next player. Regolit is used only for that purpose, so if you don't do it, regolit never come back... And you can't go to extract it again and you can't make contract and the game is broken...

I'm not really pleased to say that, but Martians a story of civilization is a good coop game that's all, only because Redimp wanted more customers they quickly made the comp game, it was a huge mistake, because now, a lot of people have doubt about this game, if Rdimp didn't do that everybody would be happy about this game...


Well I mean building facilities also gives benefits to you, I can`t really imagine doing well without having access to the laboratory or educational facilities for example! Someone`s gotta build the stuff sooner or later.
 
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Julian Clarke
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Played it competitively today. Had a blast. Co-op is too easy. Yes, there is a certain amount of luck involved. I drew 4 blank cards, was hit by almost every event & still came close 2nd in a 4 player game.

There is so much else to do. We were perhaps missing your strategies, having only played coop twice, but in order to do what we did, there seriously wasn't enough time available to do the extra time unit to assay the regolith every time, so there was plenty left until the end.
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