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Subject: Do you own the special landscapes? And if so, do you use them? rss

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Robert
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Since a while, the official rules for the special landscapes (mini expansion from last year) are published.

I wonder how many of you own them and how often you use them. I'll combine this with a question for the other expansions too just because I'm in poll mood.

Poll: Game parts you own
Which Terra Mystica components do you own?
base game
Fire & Ice expansion
bonus landscape expansion
some of the other mini expansions
      161 answers
Poll created by DocCool


Poll: Parts you use
If you play Terra Mystica Face-to-Face (i.e. not online), which expansions do you use?

Notes:
- if you don't own them but play them with a friend, that counts as well :)
- you may ignore learning/introduction games, if you're so inclined
  (almost) always in most games (>66%) often (>33%) every now and then tried it, but no more (almost) never
Fire & Ice expansion
bonus tile ship**3 (BON10)
new town markers (TW6-8)
scoring tile TE>>4
bonus landscapes
      113 answers
Poll created by DocCool
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Bojan Brankov
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I didn't know that there are official rules for bonus landscape tiles, otherwise I would use them every time!
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Steinar Nerhus
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dukelander wrote:
I didn't know that there are official rules for bonus landscape tiles, otherwise I would use them every time!


Same here! I thought some balancing/fine tuning of the winning ideas was going on, did not realized it was made official.
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James Wolfpacker
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No one in my area is good enough in base game, let alone F&I, so auctions... forget about it. I think Bonus Landscapes probably fit in somewhere between F&I and auctions in terms of difficulty so I'd have to get people to have at least 10 games under their belt with F&I rules before even trying the BLs.
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bob lawblaw
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I was originally excited for the bonus landscapes but really, really hate the the rules that were decided upon for them. Everything about them is overly complex and full of exceptions. It would take me, as a extremely experienced gamer that is good at quickly memorizing rules, at least 10-20 games with them before I would be comfortable not having the rules sitting next to me during the game. I can't even imagine trying to introduce them to my f2f playgroup who are all less game-savvy than myself. They all have different prerequisites and some of the explanations are extremely wordy and most are very awkward mechanically. TM is a game of simple mechanics and complex decision-making; I can't imagine a way that the bonus landscapes could have turned out that would have been more in opposition to that spirit of design. I was very excited for them initially, but will most likely probably never use them at all with how they turned out.
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Chris Wilczewski
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bob654 wrote:
I was originally excited for the bonus landscapes but really, really hate the the rules that were decided upon for them. Everything about them is overly complex and full of exceptions. It would take me, as a extremely experienced gamer that is good at quickly memorizing rules, at least 10-20 games with them before I would be comfortable not having the rules sitting next to me during the game. I can't even imagine trying to introduce them to my f2f playgroup who are all less game-savvy than myself. They all have different prerequisites and some of the explanations are extremely wordy and most are very awkward mechanically. TM is a game of simple mechanics and complex decision-making; I can't imagine a way that the bonus landscapes could have turned out that would have been more in opposition to that spirit of design. I was very excited for them initially, but will most likely probably never use them at all with how they turned out.


Exactly my thoughts. I now throw them into the bag and let people terraform using them if they want, but the tiles are just there for show. They serve no functional purpose beyond art for me.
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Colin Marsh
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bob654 wrote:
I was originally excited for the bonus landscapes but really, really hate the the rules that were decided upon for them. Everything about them is overly complex and full of exceptions. It would take me, as a extremely experienced gamer that is good at quickly memorizing rules, at least 10-20 games with them before I would be comfortable not having the rules sitting next to me during the game. I can't even imagine trying to introduce them to my f2f playgroup who are all less game-savvy than myself. They all have different prerequisites and some of the explanations are extremely wordy and most are very awkward mechanically. TM is a game of simple mechanics and complex decision-making; I can't imagine a way that the bonus landscapes could have turned out that would have been more in opposition to that spirit of design. I was very excited for them initially, but will most likely probably never use them at all with how they turned out.


so i've recently started introducing these and we have not had the problem you are talking about. a couple of the tiles have fiddly rules but most are quite straight forward. it might help that we always play the bidding variant so there are only 5 races & special landscapes to understand in a given game but i think you'd find it easier to grasp than you think.
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Rafael Ramus
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bob654 wrote:
I was originally excited for the bonus landscapes but really, really hate the the rules that were decided upon for them. Everything about them is overly complex and full of exceptions. It would take me, as a extremely experienced gamer that is good at quickly memorizing rules, at least 10-20 games with them before I would be comfortable not having the rules sitting next to me during the game. I can't even imagine trying to introduce them to my f2f playgroup who are all less game-savvy than myself. They all have different prerequisites and some of the explanations are extremely wordy and most are very awkward mechanically. TM is a game of simple mechanics and complex decision-making; I can't imagine a way that the bonus landscapes could have turned out that would have been more in opposition to that spirit of design. I was very excited for them initially, but will most likely probably never use them at all with how they turned out.


I completely agree, plus, I still don't understand how some of these Landscapes are supposed to balance the factions out. I mean, is that Flying Carpet abillity really that better than what the other factions are getting?

But the thing that bothers me the most is how the effect of each landscape was decided. I mean, we vote and that's it? Not a single word after it? No playtesting?

I'm really not happy with those landscapes, and they weren't cheap. As of now, they are just pieces waiting for me to houserule them.
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Anthony Heitzinger
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Where do you go to see the official rules for these landscapes? I own them, have never used them (heck, I haven't even played as every faction yet), but I'd love to read what whacky things they do.

EDIT: Lol, found the link on the top of this thread. Boy do I feel silly.
 
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Space Trucker
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Rafael Ramus wrote:
I completely agree, plus, I still don't understand how some of these Landscapes are supposed to balance the factions out. I mean, is that Flying Carpet abillity really that better than what the other factions are getting?

But the thing that bothers me the most is how the effect of each landscape was decided. I mean, we vote and that's it? Not a single word after it? No playtesting?

Hi Rafael, the rulebook for the landscape tiles says:
Quote:
These rules were compiled by the community at boardgamegeek.com.
Feel free to use them as you wish. They are still subject to change and
you are welcome to share your experience with them at boardgamegeek.com.

I guess that Feuerland or the authors have not had the capacity yet to rework and playtest all the tiles (as we know there's something else that needs playtesting, too), but wanted to release a beta rule for everybody who owns the tiles but could not use them yet. For casual play they can probably be fun even in this "work in progress" state. At least in my face to face rounds even slightly worse faction balance wouldn't matter very much for the fun we'd have, as player levels are quite different and would still have a bigger influence on the outcome (one guy is practising a bit at snellman.net while the others don't...).
I'd suggest to see those rules as a kind of "public beta".
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Rafael Ramus
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SpaceTrucker wrote:
Rafael Ramus wrote:
I completely agree, plus, I still don't understand how some of these Landscapes are supposed to balance the factions out. I mean, is that Flying Carpet abillity really that better than what the other factions are getting?

But the thing that bothers me the most is how the effect of each landscape was decided. I mean, we vote and that's it? Not a single word after it? No playtesting?

Hi Rafael, the rulebook for the landscape tiles says:
Quote:
These rules were compiled by the community at boardgamegeek.com.
Feel free to use them as you wish. They are still subject to change and
you are welcome to share your experience with them at boardgamegeek.com.

I guess that Feuerland or the authors have not had the capacity yet to rework and playtest all the tiles (as we know there's something else that needs playtesting, too), but wanted to release a beta rule for everybody who owns the tiles but could not use them yet.

(...)

I'd suggest to see those rules as a kind of "public beta".


Ok, that'd be fair. Let's hope so.
 
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bob lawblaw
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For reference, here is the initial post I made some months ago in the forums for the bonus landscapes expansion detailing the issues I saw in the development of the rules:

https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1497568/special-landscape-t...

The actual individual ideas I put together were just examples and aren't really as important as the general concept that the rules for each landscape should be much simpler.
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Luke J
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bob654 wrote:
I was originally excited for the bonus landscapes but really, really hate the the rules that were decided upon for them. Everything about them is overly complex and full of exceptions. It would take me, as a extremely experienced gamer that is good at quickly memorizing rules, at least 10-20 games with them before I would be comfortable not having the rules sitting next to me during the game. I can't even imagine trying to introduce them to my f2f playgroup who are all less game-savvy than myself. They all have different prerequisites and some of the explanations are extremely wordy and most are very awkward mechanically. TM is a game of simple mechanics and complex decision-making; I can't imagine a way that the bonus landscapes could have turned out that would have been more in opposition to that spirit of design. I was very excited for them initially, but will most likely probably never use them at all with how they turned out.


I agree completely. Also, the names are really awkward and detract from the flavor of the game.
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Germany
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I was hoping the online play community would playtest this hard and tweak it over time, but since this might take a bit time do develop I'm stuck with the analog gaming group. Since we love the asymetric nature of Terra Mystica and on the limited play experience of 4 games with the landscape tile, I have the feeling they work as a balance fix.

I do not understand the criticism that they are complicated and clunky - at all. Most of them are one line of text and we had no problem integrating those into the game, even if there was a new player there. None of those is more complicated than the Starting Ability and the Stronghold Power. Actually, for new players joining in, the point salad aspect is most intimidating and most don't have a grasp where to focus. Some of the tiles (especially Auren) give players a goal to focus on and make it actually easier to play well the first time.

I hope to see them soon on snellman to get some statistics going, but my little experience of "analog" games since they came out was that the Factions feel even more different from each other (That Swarmling Ability is so much fun!) while improving game balance.
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James Wolfpacker
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I wouldn't hold your breath on them being added to Snellman's site anytime soon. Keep in mind that they would be a lot of work to add them in and Juho is a busy man. I've been trying to find some workarounds to sort of try and play with them using "option loose-adjust-resource" but it is impossible with some of the factions.

The new map that we are currently community playtesting (see Variants subforum for Loon Lakes) are easy to add in.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Juho's code is available from github. You can copy it and edit in all of the code and symbols for the bonus landscapes and host it yourself while giving him credit of course for nearly all of the code. I don't know if Juho would accept the changes someone else made and then continue hosting it.
 
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Robert
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According to this posting, Juho has no plans to implement them.
 
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James Wolfpacker
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Juho indicated the same to me. However, I didn't want to divulge our PM to the public without his expressly saying so.
 
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