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Subject: Cautious stance and skills rss

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Luiz Paulo Salgado Jr
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Hi folks,

Can a hero in cautious stance still use skills if unencumbered?

Thank you,

LePe
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Stephan Beal
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LePe wrote:
Hi folks,

Can a hero in cautious stance still use skills if unencumbered?


No. A hero in cautious stance can do only:

- Defend (this includes the Bodyguard skill!)
- Re-roll
- Passive skills (e.g. Counterattack and Attack from Beyond)

The first 2 points are listed in the rulebook as the only allowed options, but threads in this forum include responses from Monolith which clarify that passive/reactive skills do/can trigger when cautious. The Bodyguard skill is allowed because "Defend" is not the same as "defend yourself" (that was also clarified by Monolith in another thread).
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Pablo Urieta
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And... What about casting spells in reference at this point? 

May the heroes on cautious mode casting anything of them? 
 
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Stephan Beal
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winstonsmith77 wrote:
And... What about casting spells in reference at this point? 

May the heroes on cautious mode casting anything of them? 


No. The rulebook clearly says only defending and re-rolling are allowed. Other threads have clarified (with answers from Monolith) that passive/reactive skills may trigger, but those are never actively activated by the user. Likewise (per Monolith), Bodyguard may be used because "defending" is allowed and Bodyguard allows one to defend another character.

No moving around.
No spell casting.
No Leadership skill (requires gem activation).
No picking up items.
No polishing swords.
No social networking.
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J P
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What about spells like Mitra's Halo, though? Considering you can cast that even during the Overlords's turn, I'm inclined to the think you can cast it while in cautious mode. It is a form of "defense" as well.
 
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Stephan Beal
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DancingFool wrote:
What about spells like Mitra's Halo, though? Considering you can cast that even during the Overlords's turn, I'm inclined to the think you can cast it while in cautious mode. It is a form of "defense" as well.


It's a spell which must be cast to offer a defense. No spellcasting, so... no.
 
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Tim McCormley
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sgbeal wrote:

No moving around.

Are we sure about this? What about using the "innate" movement value? It's not technically an "action," right?



 
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Stephan Beal
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armor_11 wrote:
sgbeal wrote:

No moving around.

Are we sure about this? What about using the "innate" movement value? It's not technically an "action," right?


If you can tell us which part of "only defending and re-rolling" is unclear, we can possibly clarify it for you.

Free movement points are not "defending" and not "re-rolling", so... no.
 
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Tim McCormley
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sgbeal wrote:

If you can tell us which part of "only defending and re-rolling" is unclear, we can possibly clarify it for you."

Well, given the murkiness of the rules, it would seem to be within the realm of possibility, especially in a nearly infinite universe, that there may be more than one way of looking at certain restrictions in the game.

In this case, on pg. 15, the rules say that a cautious hero can only perform guard and reroll "Actions." Technically, you don't have to take an action to move, since every character has a built in movement value. I was simply wondering if there was a reference to a specific ruling on the matter.

Feel free to ignore me if my question offends your sensibilities.

 
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Stephan Beal
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armor_11 wrote:
In this case, on pg. 15, the rules say that a cautious hero can only perform guard and reroll "Actions." Technically, you don't have to take an action to move, since every character has a built in movement value. I was simply wondering if there was a reference to a specific ruling on the matter.


Can you point out where you find a definition of Action which excludes the "free" movement points? i'm not seeing it anywhere.

AFAIK, Conan does not define any keyword "Action", and does not limit "actions" to a specific list of activities. Lacking that, we have to fall back on "move" as a verb, i.e. "an action". i.e. cannot be performed when one is in a Cautious stance.

If movement (regardless of whether it's free or not) were allowed in a Cautious stance, then the rules would explicitly say so. Instead, they explicitly list two specific activities which can be performed when Cautious: "defense" and "reroll". Both of those activities are well-defined in the game[1] and neither includes movement, nor spellcasting, nor Leadership skill, nor any of the other things many people are trying very hard to shoehorn into the definition of "allowed when Cautious."


[1] = one notable exception: Bodyguard has, by Monolith (in another thread), been ruled as a "defense" activity, because "defense" does not inherently rule out "defending someone else" (which is what Bodyguard allows).
 
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Tim McCormley
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sgbeal wrote:

Can you point out where you find a definition of Action which excludes the "free" movement points? i'm not seeing it anywhere.

Well, it's not explicitly defined, which is why I was wondering about it.

Under "Move" (pg 11?), it says that a hero may perform a move "action" by spending the appropriate gems. But then it goes on to say that every hero has a movement "value." A hero may spend movement points up to their movement value at their discretion, assuming they take no other actions. The way my friend and I played it yesterday, we didn't assign a gem to the move action to spend the movement points earned from the movement value. We just moved our heroes. Since you don't spend a gem when using your movement value, it's possible that it's not an "action," per se. I.e. Movement points earned from your movement value are always there unless you take an action before spending them.

But maybe we did it wrong across the board. Maybe you have to spend a gem even to use the free movement points. If that's the case, then it's obvious that the movement value would be an action.
 
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Clanggedin Silverbeard
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armor_11 wrote:
sgbeal wrote:

Can you point out where you find a definition of Action which excludes the "free" movement points? i'm not seeing it anywhere.

Well, it's not explicitly defined, which is why I was wondering about it.

Under "Move" (pg 11?), it says that a hero may perform a move "action" by spending the appropriate gems. But then it goes on to say that every hero has a movement "value." A hero may spend movement points up to their movement value at their discretion, assuming they take no other actions. The way my friend and I played it yesterday, we didn't assign a gem to the move action to spend the movement points earned from the movement value. We just moved our heroes. Since you don't spend a gem when using your movement value, it's possible that it's not an "action," per se. I.e. Movement points earned from your movement value are always there unless you take an action before spending them.

But maybe we did it wrong across the board. Maybe you have to spend a gem even to use the free movement points. If that's the case, then it's obvious that the movement value would be an action.


No. You don't have to spend a gem to use the Free movement points. This has been clarified by Fred Henry himself on BGG.
 
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Stephan Beal
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armor_11 wrote:
sgbeal wrote:

Can you point out where you find a definition of Action which excludes the "free" movement points? i'm not seeing it anywhere.

Well, it's not explicitly defined, which is why I was wondering about it.

Under "Move" (pg 11?), it says that a hero may perform a move "action" by spending the appropriate gems. But then it goes on to say that every hero has a movement "value." A hero may spend movement points up to their movement value at their discretion, assuming they take no other actions. The way my friend and I played it yesterday, we didn't assign a gem to the move action to spend the movement points earned from the movement value. We just moved our heroes. Since you don't spend a gem when using your movement value, it's possible that it's not an "action," per se. I.e. Movement points earned from your movement value are always there unless you take an action before spending them.

But maybe we did it wrong across the board. Maybe you have to spend a gem even to use the free movement points. If that's the case, then it's obvious that the movement value would be an action.


The first time you move in a turn, whether it's before or after you attack/manipulate/do something else, it comes from your free movement points. Once you've used up those free points OR stopped moving (e.g. to make an attack or manipulation), the free points are gone and you have to pay gems to move further (up to your exertion limit). However, movement, whether free or not, is not allowed when in a cautious/resting stance.

Based on your description, i think "action" is used there in the generic sense of "doing something," not in the sense of a specific keyword. Unfortunately, the rules (at least the English ones) don't use dictionary-like precision of terms/keywords.
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Jimmy Brazelton
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sgbeal wrote:
winstonsmith77 wrote:
And... What about casting spells in reference at this point? 

May the heroes on cautious mode casting anything of them? 


No. The rulebook clearly says only defending and re-rolling are allowed. Other threads have clarified (with answers from Monolith) that passive/reactive skills may trigger, but those are never actively activated by the user. Likewise (per Monolith), Bodyguard may be used because "defending" is allowed and Bodyguard allows one to defend another character.

No moving around.
No spell casting.
No Leadership skill (requires gem activation).
No picking up items.
No polishing swords.
No social networking.


So would you say that a good rule of thumb is that if it requires a gem to do (other than guarding), you can't do it while in cautious stance? Logically, if it doesn't require a gem, you would be able to do it, except for free movement since movement is explicitly forbidden in the rules. Is there anything that would break this rule, other than Guard and Reroll?
 
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Stephan Beal
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aubaine wrote:
So would you say that a good rule of thumb is that if it requires a gem to do (other than guarding), you can't do it while in cautious stance?


i see no need for a rule of thumb because the rule is explicit, short, and to the point: "A cautious hero can perform only Guard and Reroll actions." (This is actually a mistranslation: the French edition supposedly says "defend" instead of Guard.) The ability to use the Bodyguard skill is not an exception, per se, but requires an understanding that "defense" may also mean "defending someone else" (which is what the Bodyguard skill does). (Admittedly, i didn't see that interpretation until Pallantides pointed it out.)

There's also the obligatory exception/caveat (clarified by Monolith in other threads) that purely passive/reactive skills trigger regardless of aggressive/cautious stance (Counterattack, Attack from Beyond, etc.).

aubaine wrote:
Logically, if it doesn't require a gem, you would be able to do it, except for free movement since movement is explicitly forbidden in the rules. Is there anything that would break this rule, other than Guard and Reroll?


Not that comes to mind, but i'm not currently prepared to make a blanket statement about "costing gems" being the determining factor for whether it's allowed by Cautious, mainly because the rule "nothing but defense and rerolls" is clear enough that i see no need for an extra rule of thumb.
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Jimmy Brazelton
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Fair enough. Thanks for being so active on the forums Stephan. I really appreciate your perspective and interpretations, not to mention the issues-gathering that you've been doing.
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Claus Appel
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sgbeal wrote:
No social networking.

@ConanTheBarb: In a hut surrounded by smelly Picts and hyenas. The princess is in another castle. Sigh. FML. #pictssuck #legendofyselda #yseldaishot

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