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Subject: Miscellaneous Questions rss

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nicola caroli
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Hello nice people of the 'Geek, i've perused the board and the Faq thoroughly and am still confused by some issues. I'll post them there in hope for an answer.

Red Scare / Purge
If Red Scare is played multiple times in the same turn by the same player, thanks to SALT Negotiations or Star Wars, is the -1 modifier cumulative? Will it become -2, -3, or stay -1.

Quagmire / Bear Trap

Suppose i'm stuck in Quagmire / Beartrap and i have 3 or more Action Rounds to go yet. I have 1 (or more) 1 Ops card(s) and 1 (or more) Scoring Card(s). When my action round come i must:

a) skip all action rounds i get until to the ones i need to in order to apply rule 10.5.1, and play the scoring card(s) in those action rounds, i.e. the last one if i have one scoring card, second last one if i have two, and so on.

b) the playing of a scaring card is eligible in lieu of a discard, provided that i forgo all further opportunity for discarding. So i may play the scoring card(s) asap , and then skip all my action rounds.

I'd suppose a is the correct interpretation.

Summit

When determining if a region is dominated / controlled, do Formosan Resolution and Shuttle Diplomacy figure into it ? I guess they won't.

China Card
In the collected Ruling it is said that when China is stolen, it is stolen face up. Does this only apply to Cultural Revolution, as the other two "thieves" cards specify the state in which China card is received ?

UN Intervention

I understand the text clarification is in order to make it clear you can not play it together with another card is the headline phase. But suppose i have a hand full of opponent's events and UN, why can't i play it in my headline for no effect, and at least get the ops for all the events and getting the opportunity to hold a card instead of being forced to play one of the enemy's "for fre" ?

The Iron Lady

This is really nitpicky so bear with me. I, as the USSR play The Iron Lady for ops. At the start of the action round i don't have any influence in South America. If i resolve the event first, can i use the influence placed in argentina to spread from there ? I'd guess not, since the rules say you may spread from influence present "at the beginning of the action round"

Thanks for the patience.
Farewell
 
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Jeff Thompson
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Nicola,

Your best bet is to go here...

http://talk.consimworld.com/WebX?14@801.adDRcwKpZRc.16@.1dcf...

and follow the discussion from this point forward.

Thanks,
Jeff
 
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Philip Thomas
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For anyone who doesn't use consimworld:


Quote:
Red Scare / Purge
If Red Scare is played multiple times in the same turn by the same player, thanks to SALT Negotiations or Star Wars, is the -1 modifier cumulative? Will it become -2, -3, or stay -1.


I think it stays at -1.

Quote:

Quagmire / Bear Trap

Suppose i'm stuck in Quagmire / Beartrap and i have 3 or more Action Rounds to go yet. I have 1 (or more) 1 Ops card(s) and 1 (or more) Scoring Card(s). When my action round come i must:

a) skip all action rounds i get until to the ones i need to in order to apply rule 10.5.1, and play the scoring card(s) in those action rounds, i.e. the last one if i have one scoring card, second last one if i have two, and so on.

b) the playing of a scaring card is eligible in lieu of a discard, provided that i forgo all further opportunity for discarding. So i may play the scoring card(s) , and then skip all my action rounds.

I'd suppose a is the correct interpretation.


a is correct. If however you had no cards of value 2 or greater but a or some coring cards you would have to play those scoring cards straight away.

Quote:

Summit

When determining if a region is dominated / controlled, do Formosan Resolution and Shuttle Diplomacy figure into it ? I guess they won't.


Shuttle Diplomacy only appplies to Scoring Cards so doesn't count for Summit (or Kitchen Debates). Formosan Resolution is an all-time event and applies for anything that counts battlegrounds, including Summit

Quote:

China Card
In the collected Ruling it is said that when China is stolen, it is stolen face up. Does this only apply to Cultural Revolution, as the other two "thieves" cards specify the state in which China card is received ?


Yes, effectively it only applies to Cultural Revolution. Card text superceded written rules.

Quote:

UN Intervention

I understand the text clarification is in order to make it clear you can not play it together with another card is the headline phase. But suppose i have a hand full of opponent's events and UN, why can't i play it in my headline for no effect, and at least get the ops for all the events and getting the opportunity to hold a card instead of being forced to play one of the enemy's "for fre" ?

You can't play UN Intervention in the headline phase. Sorry.

Quote:

The Iron Lady

This is really nitpicky so bear with me. I, as the USSR play The Iron Lady for ops. At the start of the action round i don't have any influence in South America. If i resolve the event first, can i use the influence placed in argentina to spread from there ? I'd guess not, since the rules say you may spread from influence present "at the beginning of the action round"


You may use the Ops from Iron Lady to spread from Argentina even if you had no influence there before you played the card.
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nicola caroli
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Thank you VERY much, i cannot post on ConSim World.

Cheers
 
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nicola caroli
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Thank you for the quick reply Philip, i can appreciate your reasoning, but on what basis do you rule Iron Lady that way ?
Thanks
 
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Philip Thomas
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The rule against placing influence where you couldn't place it at the beginning of the action round is meant to prevent you placing influence in one country and then straight away in antoher, adjacent country. Its not a prohibition on spreading influence caused by events.

Of course, my views aren't official, they could be wrong.
 
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brian
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jeibel wrote:
Hello nice people of the 'Geek, i've perused the board and the Faq thoroughly and am still confused by some issues. I'll post them there in hope for an answer.

Red Scare / Purge
If Red Scare is played multiple times in the same turn by the same player, thanks to SALT Negotiations or Star Wars, is the -1 modifier cumulative? Will it become -2, -3, or stay -1.

I don't know. My guess would be no. I am not sure that this is the official way to play but when a card has a lasting effect for the remainder of the turn, we always keep it on the board as a reminder. So technically, it is not available in the discard pile until the end of turn.

Regardless if this is an ok way to play, I still don't think the effect would be cummulative and therefore not a wise decision to use SALT to get it back.

Quote:
Quagmire / Bear Trap

Suppose i'm stuck in Quagmire / Beartrap and i have 3 or more Action Rounds to go yet. I have 1 (or more) 1 Ops card(s) and 1 (or more) Scoring Card(s). When my action round come i must:

a) skip all action rounds i get until to the ones i need to in order to apply rule 10.5.1, and play the scoring card(s) in those action rounds, i.e. the last one if i have one scoring card, second last one if i have two, and so on.

b) the playing of a scaring card is eligible in lieu of a discard, provided that i forgo all further opportunity for discarding. So i may play the scoring card(s) asap , and then skip all my action rounds.

I'd suppose a is the correct interpretation.

The only thing the cards force you to do is discard a 2 or more Op card. If you don't have any, then you don't have to play a card. However, the card also states that Scoring cards can be played. And since you don't have the option to "pass" unless you have no more playabel cards. I would say that the moment you run out of 2-Ops cards, you must play your scoring card. You cannot sit there and "pass" until the last action round and then play a scoring card.

So I would say that option B is the closest to being correct. However, i disagree that you can play the scoring card to "forgo all further opportunity for discarding." In otherwords, you can't play a scoring card first and then retain all your 2-op cards. You must play all your 2-Op cards first, then you may play scoring cards. Of course, if all you have is 2-Ops and scoring (no 1-Op that you could retain), then you are allowed to play a Scoring card and hold onto the 2-Op card if you are on your last action round. This card doesn not force you to hold Scoring cards and thereby lose the game.

Quote:
Summit

When determining if a region is dominated / controlled, do Formosan Resolution and Shuttle Diplomacy figure into it ? I guess they won't.

I would say no because they only apply for scoring and you are not scoring at this point. So they would not count.

Quote:
China Card
In the collected Ruling it is said that when China is stolen, it is stolen face up. Does this only apply to Cultural Revolution, as the other two "thieves" cards specify the state in which China card is received ?

the directions on the cards overrule the rulebook. So follow what the cards say. If stated face down, then face down; otherwise face up.

Quote:
UN Intervention

I understand the text clarification is in order to make it clear you can not play it together with another card is the headline phase. But suppose i have a hand full of opponent's events and UN, why can't i play it in my headline for no effect, and at least get the ops for all the events and getting the opportunity to hold a card instead of being forced to play one of the enemy's "for fre" ?

Hypothetically, if you played it during your Headline phase by itself, the event would not take place (because the conditions were not met). Operations points are not allowed during the Headline Phase normally. So I think the card is pretty clear in that you can't play UN intervention *ever* in the Headline phase - it is not just their for clarification to say you can't play it alongside another card.

If you are forced to play all your cards, you're just going to have to space race one and cancel the effect of the other with UN - which is it's intended purpose and the trade-off you have by playing the card anyway!

Quote:
The Iron Lady

This is really nitpicky so bear with me. I, as the USSR play The Iron Lady for ops. At the start of the action round i don't have any influence in South America. If i resolve the event first, can i use the influence placed in argentina to spread from there ? I'd guess not, since the rules say you may spread from influence present "at the beginning of the action round"

Thanks for the patience.
Farewell

No. As you mentioned, Influence can only spread if it were there at the beginning of the turn. So no influence in SA, you can get the 1 for TIL and then next turn you can begin spreading influence.
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brian
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Philip Thomas wrote:
The rule against placing influence where you couldn't place it at the beginning of the action round is meant to prevent you placing influence in one country and then straight away in antoher, adjacent country. Its not a prohibition on spreading influence caused by events.

Of course, my views aren't official, they could be wrong.

I have to disagree. The rule means that if a card tells you to place/spread influence, you may do so even if the influence was not their at the beginning of the action round.

The Iron Lady does not tell you to do this though. You may place the 1 Influence in Argentina, but that is it. You can't spread from there with the Op points. You are stuck until the next Action Round.

Also, I have to respectfully disagree on Formosan resolution (unless I missed the errata somewhere). The card text states:

Formosan Resolution wrote:
Taiwan shall be treated as a Battleground country for scoring purposes, if the US controls Taiwan when the Asian Scoring Card is played. Taiwan is not a Battleground country for any other game purpose. This card is discarded after US play of The China Card.


Emphasis added. So it wouldn't be counted during the Summit at all.

Edit: spelling corrections
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L. Scott Johnson
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Quote:
Red Scare / Purge
If Red Scare is played multiple times in the same turn by the same player, thanks to SALT Negotiations or Star Wars, is the -1 modifier cumulative? Will it become -2, -3, or stay -1.


I think it stays at -1.


In the absence of anything to say the effect of Red Scare doesn't stack with other effects (including other Red Scares), I'd guess that it stacks (down to a minimum of 1, of course).

Similar to the way +1 modifiers from multiple effects would.

(And in the absence of anything to indicate the card isn't placed in the discard pile when played, I'd guess it is placed in the discard pile when played, as usual for non-underlined events.)
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Philip Thomas
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Well Rulemonger is as official as it gets without actually being official so I'm happy to follow him. Would you mind giving your view on the other points as well?

Tactically, if you draw Red Scare and Salt Negotiations I wouldn't pick up Red Scare with SALT and play it again that turn. There's a signficant number of cards where you're second play had no effect (because they were 1 or 2Ops to start with or because they are events he wants to play or scoring cards). I might pick up Red Scare and play it again next turn, depending what else was in the discard pile...

Of cours with Star Wars you have to take the effect immediately so thats a different thing.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Philip Thomas wrote:
Well Rulemonger is as official as it gets without actually being official so I'm happy to follow him. Would you mind giving your view on the other points as well?


I wouldn't place that much weight on my answers if you're looking for official ones -- I seem to diverge from the CSW norm on analysis/extrapolation far too often, but I can't quite seem to figure out the algorithm used there. So the frequency with which my preliminary answers (guesses) match the subsequent official ones isn't that high. But anyway...

My view matches what you and ColtsFan have worked out (and I agree with ColtsFan's corrections to your answers, for the reasons he gives).
 
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Allen Doum
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On the BT/Q question, I dohn't believe that you can "pass" when you have any cards that can be played in your hand. So if all a player has left are 1 value cards and scoring cards, then he must play the scoring cards on his action rounds. See 4.5 D and the 2nd bullet.
 
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Allen Doum
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On the Iron Lady question, 6.1.1 is pretty explict on the spreading of influence, so I would say you can't do it.
 
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Allen Doum
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On the RS/P question, the event states that the cards value is reduced by 1. I would rule that it is not stackable, and that it is still reduced by 1 after a 2nd play, but this is not clear. That it would not be reduced below 1 is clear.

Edited to reflect designers ruling: the values of playing a card more than once that modifies the ops values is cumulative.
 
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Allen Doum
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One more point on the BT/Q question. From the event text is seems clear that you cannot play scoring cards if you have any cards that can be discarded, with the exception that you must play the scoring card if you are running out of action rounds.

So the priority is:
1. If you have as many scoring cards as remaining Action rounds, you must play a scoring card.
2. If you have a card with a value of 2 or more, you must discard one and roll to get out of BT/Q.
3. You must play a scoring card.
4. You must "pass" the Action Round.
 
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brian
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AllenDoum wrote:
One more point on the BT/Q question. From the event text is seems clear that you cannot play scoring cards if you have any cards that can be discarded, with the exception that you must play the scoring card if you are running out of action rounds.

So the priority is:
1. If you have as many scoring cards as remaining Action rounds, you must play a scoring card.
2. If you have a card with a value of 2 or more, you must discard one and roll to get out of BT/Q.
3. You must play a scoring card.
4. You must "pass" the Action Round.

I would agree with this and I think Phillip does also. The problem was we were given two choices, neither of which was enitrely correct so we each took an option and tried to explain it back to the right answer. The best option would have been to just explain an "option C" like you did!
 
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nicola caroli
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Yep, i tried to explain to the best of my ability what i had figured out. The correct answer is actually different from the way i played it, since playing scoring cards take precedence and there is no card skipping. I thought it was the other way around.
Thanks to everybody who replied !

BTW, what does the use of Wargames represent in your opinion ? First Strike ? Unilateral disarmament ?

Farewell
 
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nicola caroli
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P.s. on consimworld Randy pointed out that if 6.1.1 must be interpreted that way the corollary is that if you play removal card like Truman Doctrine, Voice of America, Socialist Government and so on, you can spread from influence no longer existent ! Whoa !
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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That's not how 6.1.1 reads.

6.1.1 : "all markers must be placed with, or adjacent to, friendly markers that were in place at the start of the phasing player’s Action Round."

(Not "adjacent to spaces that were occupied by friendly markers at the start of the phasing round")
 
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brian
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Based on the authors summary of it (p. 25 in the rulebook), I think Wargames would be considered a "first strike" scenario. You sacrifice points for launching, but you hope that you hit first (i.e. win) in the process also. This is why it can only occur if DEFCON is at 2 (the point of "brinkmanship") and you would (hopefully) only play it when you had 6 or more victory points for the win.

As far as Randy's comments, I am not sure how I feel about that one. I don't follow consimworld's forums and unfortunatley miss out on a lot of the discussion. It sounds like this is something that has been discussed as he mentions it matter of factly. And I'll be honest, I never thought of playing it that way.

A strict reading of the rules (6.1.1) would indicate that the only requirement for placing influence was that it existed in an adjacent country at the start of the action round. However, I always assumed that the point about "at the start of the action round" was a qualifier to influence in an adjacent country not the main point of the rule. In other words, you could only place influence adjacent to a country that has influence at the time you place your other one AND the original influence had to be their before your action round. Especially since this phrase appeared to be directed at the rapid spread of influence. So that with a Vietnam Revolts and China Card play, you couldn't take all of SE Asia in one turn if you already had influence there.

Can someone else please confirm that Randy's comments are legit?
 
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Philip Thomas
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Wargames as a first strike scenario makes little sense. If you made a suceesful first strike, what difference would your VP score make? I kind of assumed that it represents the two superpowers playing up to the brink of war and then one backs down, at which point he loses enough foreign and domestic support to give the other side victory. But initiating the Wargames also has a cost in such support, hence the VP penalty.

Of course, its just a game, my explanation is no more right than anyone else.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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BrianMola wrote:
A strict reading of the rules (6.1.1) would indicate that the only requirement for placing influence was that it existed in an adjacent country at the start of the action round.


A strict reading yields a different result (one that matches the result you've been using) :

"all markers must be placed with, or adjacent to, friendly markers [that meet an existence window criterion]."

Restated:

They have to be played with or adjacent to a friendly marker. And, moreover, not all friendly markers qualify to be such "enabling" markers. There is an additional restriction on which of the friendly markers can be used as "enabling" markers.

That additional restriction does not mean that a marker can be placed where there is no friendly marker nearby, however.


Also interesting (to me, anyway): In the Iron Lady example, not only can the USSR player not spread to areas adjacent to Argentina, but he can't even add more influence to Argentina itself.
 
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jeibel wrote:
BTW, what does the use of Wargames represent in your opinion ? First Strike ? Unilateral disarmament ?


Based on the plot of the movie "Wargames," I would say it represents the Pentagon/Kremlin computer system being taken over by a sentient program that thinks it's only running a similuation when it's actually launching WWIII. Perhaps the idea is that your opponent's computer is taken over, causing him to start a war and lose the game (because whoever starts a nuclear war loses). Or perhaps it's your computer that's taken over, and the launch is successful and you win by nuclear conquest (which would make this the only way to win a nuclear war in the game).
 
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AllenDoum wrote:
On the RS/P question, the event states that the cards value is reduced by 1. I would rule that it is not stackable, and that it is still reduced by 1 after a 2nd play, but this is not clear. That it would not be reduced below 1 is clear.


In the absence of anything to indicate it is an exception to the general stacking principle, I'd choose the ruling that avoids making it an exception.
 
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Allen Doum
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Rulemonger wrote:
AllenDoum wrote:
On the RS/P question, the event states that the cards value is reduced by 1. I would rule that it is not stackable, and that it is still reduced by 1 after a 2nd play, but this is not clear. That it would not be reduced below 1 is clear.


In the absence of anything to indicate it is an exception to the general stacking principle, I'd choose the ruling that avoids making it an exception.

I am on the fence here. I have asked for a ruling from Jason on CSW. Rule 7.4 clearly covers combining the effects of different events, but does not address the the same event happening twice. What would a "double Red Scare", for example, represent. That ruling has been made, and the values are stackable.
 
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