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Blood Rage» Forums » General

Subject: how do fans of the game truly feel about the Loki component in the game? rss

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Ray
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Matthew 10: 29-31
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I think the game is very streamlined and well done. My quibble with the game is the cards that go against the nature of fighting with the desire to get your guys destroyed. If you don't draft those cards, then while you are trying to take territory....another player is just trying to get destroyed for points and it seems like an unnatural confrontation.

I'm not saying it's broken...but while it feels thematic with the Viking theme...it feels out of place in the fact that we want to best kill things or pillage!

So I'm not trying to start a debate and my question isn't a put down. But for you fans of the game: how do you view this part of the game? Do you like it? Do you strive to counter it? Do you try for the most part to use it?
 
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Sean Riley
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My thoughts is this. the reason this is such a good game is because there are multiple paths to victory. Yes, you are vikings and the obvious path is to destroy and kill things.

So then you have Loki, the trickster god, who goes the exact opposite approach and goes the opposite direction of the obvious path. Seems kind of in line to the trickster god to me.

I like it as it means that my strategy is to let you kill me in glorious battle. It is not a super broken mechanic because if you lose battles, you dont reap the rewards but you can at least compete.

I feel the theme is still there. It is one of things I like most about the game
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Kevin C.
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It's an important strategic element to the game that, frankly, for me, makes it worth playing.

Otherwise, it's just an arms race for the best mathematical cards. With Loki, there is a bit of subtlety or nuance to the strategy.

Straight up killing things is boring to me. Or rather, I have a bunch of games that are just about smashing and breaking. This one is a bit more sophisticated for the times when I feel like something like that.

Without Loki, I wouldn't like it as much. Or rather, it would blend in with several other "kill as much shit as possible and laugh with your mates" games.

How to counter it is beyond me...I suck. I try to balance Loki and outright conquest, but I think I misplay the draft. I'm not consistent enough I don't think.

And I always grab the Sea Monster for some reason. I love the guy, but I don't know how to use him properly, so I always get smoked.

Loki, I think, makes the game a real strategic puzzle. I think how you deal with it is a function of the draft and the key to the game is being flexible.

But like I said, I suck.

Kevin

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David Allen
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I have said something similar to my next comments in other threads realting to this game, so I beg pardon in advance for being repetitive.

My biggest (and, really, only) quibble with this game is the name. All misunderstandings about the nature of the game come from the name. I mean, "BLOOD RAGE!" it sounds like reckless wanton suicidal murder-sprees! Which, besides the definitely cool minis, is probably why most of us bought this game. But, really, it should have been called something like "RACE TO VALHALLA!" or "I DID NOT KNOW VIKINGS WERE SO SNEAKY," to be honest.

As Sean and many others (including Eric Lang and co.) have pointed out, reckless wanton slaughter (of others or yourself) is by no means the only or best key to success. Which, if the game was called "ODIN'S STRATEGIC MAJESTY" or "LOKI YOU DAMN WEASEL" everyone would have an easier time accepting. My friends and I lament the fact that once you have pillaged a province there is no way within the conventional rules of the game that you can just, y'know, FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT with anyone else for no reason? I mean, where's the rage?

But it doesn't stop us from playing, or being intrigued by the devilish machinations that you REALLY need to master to win yet another game of BLOOD PUZZLE!

Naw...

RAGNA-RACE?

Errr.... Anyway...
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Kevin C.
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I wasn't fooled by the name because I read that this was a re-implementation of Lang's earlier game, Midgard. That's a euro through and through.

I figured this would be the same with the addition of some cool minis.

It's funny: I think most Viking games are euros.

Odd.

Kevin
 
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Jacob Casper
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Its great because it's a valid way to play and you have to deduce and avoid that strategy once you encounter it. Yeah. Makes the game so much more interesting.
 
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Don Sombrero
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for me, it is a bit tricky.

The overall idea is fantastic - benefiting from losses is an interesting twist to the game.

However, there are two disadvantages - the first one has been widely discussed but the second one I have not seen s far.

1. Once a player get enough Loki cards, they are hardly stoppable. I know the main argument "do net let them draft all the cards" but it is not a card game - tactics should always be able to outweigh drafting. besides, the game is also about making cool combos - not being forced to take Loki cards so the other guy does not get them.

2. Apart from the one cards slot in you hand, there is no cost to using Loki cards - and they usually come back to your hand anyway. And the worst part is that they cannot be countered. We had a game when a player built a brilliant 6-card combo but during the first battle in Age 2 Loki's Poison was played against his most powerful card, which shattered his whole combo. He even had the Tyr card that prevents discards for range but it does not work against Loki's Poison.

So the bottom line is - "It is useful to take one Loki card for all battles you will expect to lose and there is nothing other players do about it (except the Thor cancel card)".
 
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Kevin C.
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Quote:
Once a player get enough Loki cards, they are hardly stoppable. I know the main argument "do net let them draft all the cards" but it is not a card game - tactics should always be able to outweigh drafting. besides, the game is also about making cool combos - not being forced to take Loki cards so the other guy does not get them.


It's interesting the way people see things differently. I see it as nothing more than a card game.

The cards you draft define your choices for the turn. Without them, you don't really have a game to speak of.

The tactics you employ are shaped by the cards you have in your hand. So, I don't think you should be able to "tactics" your way out of a poor draft. That would make the drafting element superfluous to me.

So, the game begins and ends with the cards for me.

Plus, I'm not so much about cool combos. I just want to win. If I can win by counterdraft, that's fine. In fact, to win, I think I have to counterdraft. To me, that is the crux of the game. How to balance drafting for my own plans while also drafting to specifically stop your plans.

Allowing someone to draft too many Loki cards, to my mind, is a strategic mistake. As I said, the game begins and ends with the draft, so the draft decisions are probably more important than any tactic over-the-board.

Kevin
 
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Tyrell Wood
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I like to play it and also counter it. I really like that it is part of the game. It's just fun either way you slice it for me.
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David Holman
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Don Sombrero wrote:
1. Once a player get enough Loki cards, they are hardly stoppable. I know the main argument "do net let them draft all the cards" but it is not a card game - tactics should always be able to outweigh drafting. besides, the game is also about making cool combos - not being forced to take Loki cards so the other guy does not get them.

Isn't drafting part of your tactics though? While Kevin C. thinks it's all a drafting game I don't agree. It's a mixed game (middle ground, here I come). And drafting should always be taken into account when strategizing.

You're also not forced into taking ALL the Loki cards, but if everyone takes one, that makes the "Loki player" less strong, if not out right weak.

Don Sombrero wrote:
2. Apart from the one cards slot in you hand, there is no cost to using Loki cards - and they usually come back to your hand anyway. And the worst part is that they cannot be countered. We had a game when a player built a brilliant 6-card combo but during the first battle in Age 2 Loki's Poison was played against his most powerful card, which shattered his whole combo. He even had the Tyr card that prevents discards for range but it does not work against Loki's Poison.

I love this, because it's something my gaming group found a quick way of combating, without discussing it. For instance what you can do is force the guy to win. You go in to a place where he is strong, or stronger at least, you pillage and you show a quest card. No matter what card he shows, if his figures are stronger than yours, then he'll win and lose the card.

What usually happens here is that the leading player will do this and the Loki player will think that he wants to win with a strong card, but, double bluff and Loki wins.

Point is: you've got to beat Loki at his own game by playing the player and not the cards (oooh, points for poker reference).

-----------------------------------------------------------------

In conclusion: Loki gives the game that much deeper of a dimension for me. Without him I don't even think the game would be fun because it would JUST be an arms race with tactics and you'd have to introduce something else (Twilight Imperium has politics and gems, Triumph and Tragedy has hidden tiles and Game of Thrones has hidden moves and politics)
 
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Matheus Affonso
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Questions about Loki get asked quite frequently here, and usually by folks who have either not played Blood Rage yet, or played only a couple games.

As has already been mentioned, it is only one of the many paths to victory offered.

There is no single strategy in this game that will guarantee victory. There are some which are decidedly very strong, but most require some pretty flawless setup to yield any considerable amount of glory.

The Loki cards come as a surprise to many their first time around, as it can be unexpected to see what looks like an area control game reward defeat and the actual loss of control over the board, but after a few matches, it will be easily countered — especially if you take into consideration the fact that many Loki cards are desirable for different strategies altogether.

So, yeah, I'm a big fan of Blood Rage (it's on my top 5), and do not think there is anything wrong with Loki. If anything, it does, like Kevin has stated, add an interesting layer of strategy that requires players to actually assess whether it is worth it to initiate a battle and fully commit to it or not.
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Ray
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You guys are awesome. This gives me much to think about. Yes, I've only played the game once and throughly enjoyed it. One player wisely snatched up almost all the trickery cards and crushed us...but in my defense : I was really trying to be as vicious as I could be as was the other player. I definitely want to try this again with this knowledge and greatly appreciate the insight from the game's fans!
 
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Kevin C.
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Perhaps I went too far by saying it was "just" a drafting game. It isn't Fairy Tale. Tactics over the board do matter.

But I think those tactics are largely defined by the draft. You start out by taking the "best" card (to you) in the first round and then each subsequent card is a re-evaluation of how you make the "best" of your present choices based on what others have taken.

(Indeed, that first card can either be a flexible choice allowing you to graft something else on or a more narrow choice.)

You moves over the board, I feel, are based on your had. Quests will suggest certain moves, monsters will open up certain tactics and battle cards will also support moves on the board. Loki cards just offer a different path.

Kevin






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Thanee
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I think what makes this game so great is that the Draft and the Action Phase are so interwoven. You draft according to the game state and you do actions according to what you draft, thus changing the game state according to the draft. It is a back and forth. Neither of these main elements of the game are dominant. They are both equally important.

As for Loki, like many others have said, if the game was just about winning combats, it would be pretty bad. The fact, that different players go into a combat with different goals (winning, of course, getting glory, gaining pillage advantages, fulfilling objectives, losing (the Loki strategy), but also stuff like forcing others to play cards to prepare for upcoming battles), is just great!

If winning combats was the only thing, it would be a boring game, since most of the time you would not even want to oppose someone, unless you were sure that you had a good shot at winning and there was something in it for you as well.

Bye
Thanee
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Chris D
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I completely agree with Matheus.

Blood Rage has this thing where the first time you play, if you are not already familiar with it, you expect to play a certain kind of game only to realize later that it really is another kind of game.

The Loki cards are fun and quite original, definitely one of the best part of the game.

Pretty much everything has some way to be countered. And yes, while there are a few multi card strategies that if executed to perfection will almost guarantee a win, how often can you make it happen? Once in a blue moon (and it feels great, but playing with the same people you can be sure that it won't happen again ).

Love the action / counteraction back and forth and never being quite sure that your plans will succeed!
 
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Jonathan Ow
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Thor is actually a good counter to Loki as Thor's battle cards tend to give really low points but high rewards so if you know your opponent is going to play Loki, then you're going to win. You can easily outpace the Loki player from winning battles.
 
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