GeekGold Bonus for All Supporters at year's end: 1000!

7,767 Supporters

$15 min for supporter badge & GeekGold bonus
22 Days Left

Support:

Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
23 Posts

Star Trek: Ascendancy» Forums » Rules

Subject: What happens if you can't place a space lane/system? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Lou Lessing
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Sometimes when you try to explore a new system towards the end of the game, you roll a space lane that you simply cannot fit anywhere on the system you're exploring from.

If you roll a space lane like that, what happens? If there's a space lane that you could place, do you reroll for that? Do you just drop out of warp at the system where you failed to place the lane? If you have a bunch of extra warp tokens left can you use them to reroll, or go around? (This probably matters even more if you set up two systems to be a space lane distance apart in the hopes of linking them up later.)

Frequently, it's possible to place the new space lane but not the system at the end of it. If that happens, do you have to drop out of warp at the end of the dead-end space lane?

I feel like part of this was answered somewhere but I didn't find it in a quick search.

Thanks!

-Lou
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nova Cat
United States
Bakersfield
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
If you cannot place the space lane, then you have to stop in the system.

If you can place the space lane, but not a system disc on the end of it, you must stop in the space lane (any sector of the space lane, your choice).
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Source?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Craig S.
United States
Seattle
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmb
davypi wrote:
Source?


It's the most sensible answer, given the rules as written. Would you rule it differently?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nova Cat
United States
Bakersfield
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
davypi wrote:
Source?

8 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
csouth154 wrote:
davypi wrote:
Source?


It's the most sensible answer, given the rules as written. Would you rule it differently?


Yes I would. I have a situation in a game right now where there is massive clutter in the center of the board, but it is still possible to place a size two lane between systems. Thematically, if the systems can be connected, I don't see why I should have to repeatedly burn command tokens until I roll a 2. The systems are either connectable or they are not. Its not an issue of luck; space doesn't work like that.

Outside of that, I have played games where die rolls or card draws that create impossible situations allow the active player to reroll/draw again. The rules on page 12 are written with a clear presumption that it will always be possible to place a space lane with the given die roll. It doesn't actually give a specific resolution for invalid/impossible die rolls. Given how large the FAQs for other GF9 games I'm not quick to presume a resolution for an unexplained situation.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James J

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Yeah, Nova Cat's got it right.

I have a feeling the OP might not be explaining it entirely clearly, though. I can't imagine a situation where the lane itself wouldn't fit. If there is a question of the lane physically not fitting, then there is zero chance of a fitting a new system disc at the end of it. Rolling a lane that is too long for making a connection to an existing system is a different matter entirely. That lane may not fit where you want it to, but I guarantee it will fit somewhere else around the system disc you are leaving.

Regardless, I agree with Nova's explanation. Variations of this have come up before and GF9 has been consistent with their answers.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lou Lessing
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
That's the simplest rule, and I agree perhaps the most sensible. The rules as written are very vague on this point, however. As far as I can tell they make no mention of the possibility of being unable to place a tile.

The closest it comes is in "Making Connections", which addresses the possibility of rolling a space lane that's too short to make the connection you intended to make.

In that case, if you're moving at warp, you have to place the space lane of the wrong size. If you're at warp, you can come out of warp anywhere in the space lane, or explore a new system at the end of it. If you're at impulse, you can move 1 or 2 onto the space lane, or move 1 onto it and then 1 back to the system you started the move in, abandoning abandoning the lane.

The intent here seems to be that you complete as much of your move as you can with the roll you get. Having an impossible placement stop your movement is consistent with that intent, I think. But I also think that represents a significant amount of extrapolation from the rule as written. Getting a space lane die roll you can place but don't want is different from getting one you can't place at all. The connections rules say you have to use the lane you're given, but that doesn't entirely resolve the question of what you do when can't follow them without breaking other placement rules.

I'd be surprised if it were ruled differently from Novacat's suggestion, but I'd still like a ruling from GF9 or a rulebook citation that applies more directly to the question than Making Connections, if such exists.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
brisingre wrote:
The connections rules say you have to use the lane you're given, but that doesn't entirely resolve the question of what you do when can't follow them without breaking other placement rules.


This much I agree with. I'm not advocating that players should be allowed to cherry pick their lane size. It just seems like when you get to the point where a lane size is scripted you shouldn't have to go fishing for it. I have to admit I wouldn't be surprised if the official answer says otherwise though. Firefly and Spartacus are both rife with an abundance of luck and Ascendancy isn't any exception.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lou Lessing
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
japester1 wrote:
Yeah, Nova Cat's got it right.

I have a feeling the OP might not be explaining it entirely clearly, though. I can't imagine a situation where the lane itself wouldn't fit. If there is a question of the lane physically not fitting, then there is zero chance of a fitting a new system disc at the end of it. Rolling a lane that is too long for making a connection to an existing system is a different matter entirely. That lane may not fit where you want it to, but I guarantee it will fit somewhere else around the system disc you are leaving.

Regardless, I agree with Nova's explanation. Variations of this have come up before and GF9 has been consistent with their answers.


Made a crappy diagram to explain my question: http://i.imgur.com/ZZlepuW.jpg

The Federation fleet on Excalbia is less than 2 from Deneb and Argo, and it's between 3 and 4 from Sherman's Planet (which has a lot of glare on it). It cannot form a new connection to any of the neighboring systems. If it tries to move to a new space lane, if it rolls a 2 or a 3, it can place the lane but not a planet at the end of it. If it rolls a 4, it can't even place the lane -- the only plausible candidate for a place to put it is between Sherman's Planet and the Eagle Nebula, and it simply does not fit. Either you hit Sherman's Planet, or you hit the Excalbia side of the Excalbia-Eagle Nebula lane.

The Romulan fleet on Indri VIII is exactly 2 from the Mcallister Nebula. If they're trying to connect to it, the rules are perfectly clear, although I agree with davypi that they're a little strange. If it rolls a 2, it can make that connection, if it rolls a 3 or a 4 it will have to place a new system or a dead-end space lane.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Van Deusen
United States
Austin
Texas
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
davypi wrote:
Its not an issue of luck; space doesn't work like that.

I don't know how you can say that with such certainty. It's possible that is how space works.

Or perhaps the area between the two systems is not navigable for some reason until you explore enough to "luck" into exactly the right path.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Frank Overwood wrote:
I don't know how you can say that with such certainty.


We have done scientific experiments where we have watched the path that light takes from its originating star to another location. In fact, we have used such experiments to show that black holes bend the path of light. So, with technology we have today, we can use light paths to figure out exactly how we would need to get from one star system to another.

How many NASA missions have failed because we overestimated a distance by either 50% or 100%?

How many episode of Star Trek has the navigator said, "well, I don't know long its going to take us to get there. I'm just gonna keep mashing these buttons and hope we get the right direction and distance."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Obvious Aux
Wales
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
davypi wrote:
Frank Overwood wrote:
I don't know how you can say that with such certainty.


We have done scientific experiments where we have watched the path that light takes from its originating star to another location. In fact, we have used such experiments to show that black holes bend the path of light. So, with technology we have today, we can use light paths to figure out exactly how we would need to get from one star system to another.

How many NASA missions have failed because we overestimated a distance by either 50% or 100%?

How many episode of Star Trek has the navigator said, "well, I don't know long its going to take us to get there. I'm just gonna keep mashing these buttons and hope we get the right direction and distance."


But warp engines work by distorting space-time and it may be that it will only distort in certain ways (hence the star lanes). Not exactly Trek canon, but not clearly contradicted by it anyway.

(Yes, I know you can travel at impulse but who knows how that works. Seems supra-light in this game anyway, so I suspect it's a combo of impulse and warp).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Martin Gallo
United States
O'Fallon
Missouri
flag msg tools
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
Uhm, time to trot out a reminder that this is a game. I is made up of 2d pieces and played on a 2d surface. If the piece doesn't fit, you must admit... that the risk was too great for the reward.

Sometimes rolling for a space lane is very similar to rolling in combat - "If I had only rolled an 'N' I would have succeeded."
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Day Life
msg tools
Avatar
There are a few things going on here... and this is how we play it.

If you explore using impulse and you can place the lane but not the planet, then you still place the lane and move onto the lane card as normal.

If you Warp and you can not place a planet, then the lane and the planet are never put onto the table (put back into the piles) and the star ship just doesn't move. Your command tokens are exhausted as normal. The same thing happens if you use impulse to exit a lane into where a planet would be placed if the planet can not fit.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
DayinDaLife wrote:
If you Warp and you can not place a planet, then the lane and the planet are never put onto the table (put back into the piles) and the star ship just doesn't move. Your command tokens are exhausted as normal. The same thing happens if you use impulse to exit a lane into where a planet would be placed if the planet can not fit.


I was going to make a post that the rules didn't support this, but after re-reading them, this whole situation is more ambiguous than I originally thought.

It may be relevant to note that the rules only state that moving into a new system ends movement. It doesn't say that failing to place a space lane ends your movement. So if I have a warp movement of three and a die roll results in an impossible configuration, my movement is not over. I still have two warps available to try again. If you want to get even more nitpicky, you don't expend a warp unless you move through a system (page 11). If failing to place a space lane puts me back into the same system, I've not passed through anything, and therefore I've not lost the movement point. Under this reading, I actually can continue to re-roll the space lane die indefinitely until I get a valid result. I still have movement points and a failed roll does not decrease how many movement points I have.

The other thing that seems strangely ambiguous is that the rules about floating systems only talk about floating systems. If a space lane does not have planet on the other end of it, nothing in the rule book says that the space lane "floats." If I want to prevent somebody from connecting to a system, I can create a space lane with a single impulse movement, put the lane in an obnoxiously difficult location to connect with, and then just leave my ship parked there for the rest of the game. Other players can't move the space lane. I would wholeheartedly agree that this interpretation is against the spirit of the rulebook, but if taken literally, it is a valid strategy.

GF9 really needs to clarify and clean this up. There is a lot of ambiguity the way the system build rules are written.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Day Life
msg tools
Avatar
davypi wrote:

The other thing that seems strangely ambiguous is that the rules about floating systems only talk about floating systems. If a space lane does not have planet on the other end of it, nothing in the rule book says that the space lane "floats." If I want to prevent somebody from connecting to a system, I can create a space lane with a single impulse movement, put the lane in an obnoxiously difficult location to connect with, and then just leave my ship parked there for the rest of the game. Other players can't move the space lane. I would wholeheartedly agree that this interpretation is against the spirit of the rulebook, but if taken literally, it is a valid strategy.


I literally just made a thread about this lol...

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1662943/space-lanes-onl...

We have been playing that for the space lane max count to be filled there has to be a planet attached to the end of the lane and that when there is no planet on the end BOTH players are free to move it.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lou Lessing
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
davypi wrote:
Frank Overwood wrote:
I don't know how you can say that with such certainty.


We have done scientific experiments where we have watched the path that light takes from its originating star to another location. In fact, we have used such experiments to show that black holes bend the path of light. So, with technology we have today, we can use light paths to figure out exactly how we would need to get from one star system to another.

How many NASA missions have failed because we overestimated a distance by either 50% or 100%?

How many episode of Star Trek has the navigator said, "well, I don't know long its going to take us to get there. I'm just gonna keep mashing these buttons and hope we get the right direction and distance."


They did at least include a paragraph of fluff trying to explain this away. It isn't especially consistent with Star Trek except insofar as it's about as well grounded in real-world physics (not very,) but it's in there. Essentially what they came up with is "Warp travel is complicated" which, IDK... I'm fine with.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Stevenson

Apex
North Carolina
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
We had a similar situation in my last game.

ALL systems tiles were already on the board. But, it was still possible to place space lanes between existing systems. Some were fixed, some were not.

The player was in warp. He decided to try and connect a non-fixed system to a fixed system. He ended up drawing a space lane that, for some reason, could not be used to connect the system he was coming from to the destination system. I can’t remember the exact situation, BUT, it just wouldn’t fit in a legal manner. For the time being, there was a hanging space lane.

Normally, if he was able to connect the systems in some legal manner, he would have come out of warp in the destination system. BUT, he couldn’t connect them. Our question was, by placing the space lane, was he committed to coming out of warp and therefore forced to exit warp at the end of the unconnected space lane or should he have been forced to come out of warp in the previous system? (he was never actually in the previous system, just “traveled by it” in warp.

In the end we let him change his move as the rule wasn’t clear. However, from that point on we decided, if someone decided to do that and couldn’t connect 2 existing systems with a space lane of the perfect size, they were forced to come out at the end of the unconnected space lane.

Not sure that was the best choice. Thoughts?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
k c
msg tools
mb
I play that:

1. before you roll the lane dice, you specify which system you are attaching the space lane/exiting from.

2. Once you roll the lane dice, you are committed to placing it.

3. If you cannot place the lane, then you must stop in the system you would have attached it to. The only reason you could not place the space lane would be if it there is no room to place it, or all the space lanes of that size are used (no more in the supply).

I believe these are consistent with the rules as written.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Daniel Grant
United States
Santa Clarita
CA
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
davypi wrote:

It just seems like when you get to the point where a lane size is scripted you shouldn't have to go fishing for it.


Your argument is persuasive but flawed. Just because a space lane "could" fit doesn't mean it exists in the game. The failure to roll a 2 could mean 1) no space lane exists. It appears possible because a 2 can be rolled on a die in theory, but a 2 wasn't rolled so it doesn't exist. Or 2) the space lane needs multiple rolls to "find" it. We know we can do this to "cherry-pick" lanes.

For these reasons, I think Nova Cat is right. Here is an alternative scenario.

Two players are on a system with one single space lane available for connecting. Two systems are available to be connected to, but both are a size 2 lane away. Should the player who rolled a 4 be able to place a 2 lane to their preferred system, or should it be the player who spends the Command and rolls a 2 first? I think it should be the latter, and thus Nova Cat has the most elegant solution.

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David Jones
United States
Wilsonville
Oregon
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Jatta Pake wrote:
Two players are on a system with one single space lane available for connecting. Two systems are available to be connected to, but both are a size 2 lane away. Should the player who rolled a 4 be able to place a 2 lane to their preferred system, or should it be the player who spends the Command and rolls a 2 first? I think it should be the latter, and thus Nova Cat has the most elegant solution.


1) If the game didn't make you bid for turn order, I might agree with you. However, because this mechanic is part of the game, I would argue that having first choice of where to put that lane is part of the benefit (or perhaps disadvantage) of turn order card you payed for.

2) As somebody who prefers that strategy have more relevance to the outcome of a game than luck, I strongly disagree with your usage of the word "elegant" in that last sentence. The only thing you've really proven here is that the interpretation of the system build rules is subject to opinion rather than objectivity.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
James J

Texas
msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
DoctorBox wrote:

Normally, if he was able to connect the systems in some legal manner, he would have come out of warp in the destination system. BUT, he couldn’t connect them. Our question was, by placing the space lane, was he committed to coming out of warp and therefore forced to exit warp at the end of the unconnected space lane or should he have been forced to come out of warp in the previous system? (he was never actually in the previous system, just “traveled by it” in warp.


I was a little confused by warp, too. But the answers can be found on pg 14 and 11 in the rule book.

"If the new Space Lane isn't long enough to make the connection you want and the Ship is traveling at Warp, you can either stop in the new Space Lane or continue on to discover a new System at the end of the new Space Lane."

So, no stopping in the prior system to avoid placing the new lane. You have to place it. The only choice then is whether to stop in it or continue to a new system rather than making the intended connection.

"When you come out of Warp in a Space Lane, you may stop in any Sector of the Space Lane."

So no need to force them to the far end of the lane. If you exit warp and roll a bad lane, just stop in the first sector. Then you can use an impulse command to back out, lose the lane and then move back into it so you can roll a new one. Unlike warp, impulse lets you move back and forth like that with a single move. Rinse and repeat until you get the length you want.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.