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Subject: Facebook ads.. now with racial discrimination built in. rss

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Mac Mcleod
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https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-lets-advertisers...
Quote:

Imagine if, during the Jim Crow era, a newspaper offered advertisers the option of placing ads only in copies that went to white readers.

That’s basically what Facebook is doing nowadays.

The ubiquitous social network not only allows advertisers to target users by their interests or background, it also gives advertisers the ability to exclude specific groups it calls “Ethnic Affinities.” Ads that exclude people based on race, gender and other sensitive factors are prohibited by federal law in housing and employment.

Here is a screenshot of an ad we purchased in Facebook’s housing categories via the company’s advertising portal:

(image showing facebook supports excluding blacks, hispanics, and asians for a house ad).



see also
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/10/28/2032203/facebook-le...


I hope facebook fixes this fast. If they don't, I hope they get treated with all due vigor.

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John Prewitt
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I've had to do recruiting calls for businesses where we were explicitly told to NOT call white people (for quotas, etc.), which I found rather racist/interesting.
 
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Georg von Lemberg
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You realize that old school media also allows advertisers to pick and choose which group they want to advertise to, just not as precisely.

In any case, not sure what the problem is. I highly doubt any mainstream advertiser is going to exclude people on a racial or ethnic basis, more likely they will pick their target markets by income levels, disposable income, education etc. These categories may or may not skew toward or away from certain identifiable groups.

Other advertisers may find it very valuable to target specific audiences. For example if I am publishing a French language magazine, I might want to advertise only to people who mention in their profile that they live in a francophone country or that they speak french.
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Mac Mcleod
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gvonl wrote:
You realize that old school media also allows advertisers to pick and choose which group they want to advertise to, just not as precisely.

In any case, not sure what the problem is. I highly doubt any mainstream advertiser is going to exclude people on a racial or ethnic basis, more likely they will pick their target markets by income levels, disposable income, education etc. These categories may or may not skew toward or away from certain identifiable groups.

Other advertisers may find it very valuable to target specific audiences. For example if I am publishing a French language magazine, I might want to advertise only to people who mention in their profile that they live in a francophone country or that they speak french.


In the U.S. this is illegal for housing and most jobs. I'm not sure what other areas.

You can use a proxy like advertising at hockey games or advertising in a newspaper with heavy racial readership but you can't explicitly exclude people by race.
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Mac Mcleod
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ImaSokpupet wrote:
Seems to me that the person placing the ad is at fault, not Facebook.


You can do it only because they specifically allow it so I'm pretty sure they are at fault too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_discrimination_(United...)

 
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Georg von Lemberg
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maxo-texas wrote:
gvonl wrote:
You realize that old school media also allows advertisers to pick and choose which group they want to advertise to, just not as precisely.

In any case, not sure what the problem is. I highly doubt any mainstream advertiser is going to exclude people on a racial or ethnic basis, more likely they will pick their target markets by income levels, disposable income, education etc. These categories may or may not skew toward or away from certain identifiable groups.

Other advertisers may find it very valuable to target specific audiences. For example if I am publishing a French language magazine, I might want to advertise only to people who mention in their profile that they live in a francophone country or that they speak french.


In the U.S. this is illegal for housing and most jobs. I'm not sure what other areas.

You can use a proxy like advertising at hockey games or advertising in a newspaper with heavy racial readership but you can't explicitly exclude people by race.


If you are an adult and you are relying on facebook for either a job or accommodations then you are really beyond help. Stop blaming society/racism/the-patriarchy and maybe ask your parents why they didn't prepare you for life.
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Mac Mcleod
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ImaSokpupet wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
ImaSokpupet wrote:
Seems to me that the person placing the ad is at fault, not Facebook.


You can do it only because they specifically allow it so I'm pretty sure they are at fault too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Housing_discrimination_(United...)

I don't think so. Facebook seems more like Craigslist (don't know what they mean by internet provider, that would be AT&T/Comcast) than a newspaper.
http://rmlscentral.com/2015/05/14/fair-housing-and-advertisi...
Quote:
However, a legal interpretation of the Communications Decency Act (CDA) holds that interactive internet providers, like Craigslist, are not publishers and therefore are not liable for violating the Fair Housing Act if discriminatory housing ads are published on their sites.


I think Facebook is a million miles away from Craigslist. it is no where near a neutral publisher of information. Also, craislist doesn't allow you to specify who can see your ads by race.
 
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Welcome to the world you leftist idiots wanted.
Enjoy your stay.
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Mac Mcleod
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From the linked article above...

Quote:

When we showed Facebook’s racial exclusion options to a prominent civil rights lawyer John Relman, he gasped and said, “This is horrifying. This is massively illegal. This is about as blatant a violation of the federal Fair Housing Act as one can find.”

The Fair Housing Act of 1968 makes it illegal "to make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin.” Violators can face tens of thousands of dollars in fines.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 also prohibits the “printing or publication of notices or advertisements indicating prohibited preference, limitation, specification or discrimination” in employment recruitment.
 
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ImaSokpupet wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
From the linked article above...

Quote:

When we showed Facebook’s racial exclusion options to a prominent civil rights lawyer John Relman, he gasped and said, “This is horrifying. This is massively illegal. This is about as blatant a violation of the federal Fair Housing Act as one can find.”

The Fair Housing Act of 1968 makes it illegal "to make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin.” Violators can face tens of thousands of dollars in fines.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 also prohibits the “printing or publication of notices or advertisements indicating prohibited preference, limitation, specification or discrimination” in employment recruitment.
Well, what you quoted shows that they clearly aren't violating the law, "with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin."

Think about it this way. Imagine that Facebook owns several networks, BET, Oxygen, Fishing Channel. They are offering the people the option of which network to advertise on. The demograohics of those networks might be heavier towards black people, lesbians, or hicks, but if the ad itself doesn't indicate a preference, the ad isn't discriminatory.



As much as I hate to agree with whoever this loathsome dipshit is...

...in this case, I can't see a fault in his argument.

And really don't see an issue, here. I mean, it's pure advertising, nothing else. Nobody is being EXCLUDED from opportunities - hell, they aren't even seeing FEWER ADS - they are merely seeing different ads, tailored (as best as Facebook can manage) to their own preferences.

As someone who has been working in this sector for a very long time, this is a GOOD THING. Seriously, as a consumer, this is a good thing. Why would I want to be bombarded with the before-time system of 'whatever random ad anyone purchases' and seeing an endless stream of gun ads, dildo ads, Viagra ads, etc - all incredibly useless to me.

New ad paradigm targets ads to me BASED ON MY INTERESTS, and instead of the past 20 years when I had never bought a single thing through a web ad...via Facebook ads, I have ended up going to several concerts of bands I liked that I had no idea were in my area. Picked up several boardgame expansions I didn't realize existed (even given I'm a BGG regular) that were tied to games I liked. Joined at least two Kickstarters for games that seemed especially interesting. etc.

We're merely taking about targeted ads, here, and targeted ads ARE A GOOD THING.
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Mac Mcleod
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I guess either Facebook will turn it off or we'll let the courts decide the issue.
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TheDashi wrote:
Welcome to the world you leftist idiots wanted.
Enjoy your stay.

You are getting a bit like Shreve now. Banging on in a boring way. With you it's irrelevant interjections about leftists.
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David Dearlove
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ImaSokpupet wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
From the linked article above...

Quote:

When we showed Facebook’s racial exclusion options to a prominent civil rights lawyer John Relman, he gasped and said, “This is horrifying. This is massively illegal. This is about as blatant a violation of the federal Fair Housing Act as one can find.”

The Fair Housing Act of 1968 makes it illegal "to make, print, or publish, or cause to be made, printed, or published any notice, statement, or advertisement, with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin.” Violators can face tens of thousands of dollars in fines.

The Civil Rights Act of 1964 also prohibits the “printing or publication of notices or advertisements indicating prohibited preference, limitation, specification or discrimination” in employment recruitment.
Well, what you quoted shows that they clearly aren't violating the law, "with respect to the sale or rental of a dwelling that indicates any preference, limitation, or discrimination based on race, color, religion, sex, handicap, familial status, or national origin."

Think about it this way. Imagine that Facebook owns several networks, BET, Oxygen, Fishing Channel. They are offering the people the option of which network to advertise on. The demograohics of those networks might be heavier towards black people, lesbians, or hicks, but if the ad itself doesn't indicate a preference, the ad isn't discriminatory.


This is a terrible analogy. It's about accurately tailoring adverts so that black people don't venue see an advert for a house in a "white" area. I think the courts will be able to interpret the spirit of the law to outlaw this,as the laws clearly would have banned this if it had been possible when the law was written.
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jeremy cobert
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Drew1365 wrote:
Zuckerberg thought he was leftist-approved . . . And you won't believe what happens next!


Thats the winner ! this may be your best line of the year.

On topic, well duh, you want to target your message to specific groups. Why pay more to send your advertisement to people not in your demographic ?
 
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jeremycobert wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Zuckerberg thought he was leftist-approved . . . And you won't believe what happens next!


Thats the winner ! this may be your best line of the year.

On topic, well duh, you want to target your message to specific groups. Why pay more to send you advertisement to people not in your demographic ?


Because steering housing ads away from folks based on their ethnicity is a blatant violation of the Fair Housing Act. Or are minorities not allowed legal protection in the world you seem to inhabit.
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Drew1365 wrote:
There's nothing at all wrong with targeting your advertising.

Except when there is.

Social Justice is a Kafkaesque minefield.



unless its against WHITE DUDES like yourself... then we all get the vapors about the injustices of white guys having their rights being ripped from their beings, like a fetus being ripped from its mother's uterus.

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maxo-texas wrote:
https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-lets-advertisers...
Quote:

Imagine if, during the Jim Crow era, a newspaper offered advertisers the option of placing ads only in copies that went to white readers.

That’s basically what Facebook is doing nowadays.

The ubiquitous social network not only allows advertisers to target users by their interests or background, it also gives advertisers the ability to exclude specific groups it calls “Ethnic Affinities.” Ads that exclude people based on race, gender and other sensitive factors are prohibited by federal law in housing and employment.

Here is a screenshot of an ad we purchased in Facebook’s housing categories via the company’s advertising portal:

(image showing facebook supports excluding blacks, hispanics, and asians for a house ad).



see also
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/10/28/2032203/facebook-le...


I hope facebook fixes this fast. If they don't, I hope they get treated with all due vigor.


Fixes? This is the reality of advertising.
 
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jeremy cobert
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Kumitedad wrote:
Because steering housing ads away from folks based on their ethnicity is a blatant violation of the Fair Housing Act. Or are minorities not allowed legal protection in the world you seem to inhabit.


Oh noes, does the social contract give me the right to be advertised to ?

Oh the people who buy adverting during wheel of fortune are ageist, They should have to advertise during kids cartoons. Oh in the name of fairness, we make people advertise to everyone at completely random times !

Social justice win !
 
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Mac Mcleod
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bjlillo wrote:
Mac wants Supreme Court nominees targeted to piss off a certain racial demographic but feigns indignation when FB dares offer advertisers those tools. Huh, that's like raaaaiiiaaaaaaaaaain on you wedding day.


What I really want to know is, why the fuck people who commonly argue the conservative position on other issues consistently come down on the pro-racist, pro discrimination side of issues. Over time, it becomes almost impossible not to conclude they are actually racist.

Let's see...

Lynching black men. Can we agree that's wrong?

Black people having sex with, falling in love with, marrying and having children with white people. Can we agree there is nothing wrong with that?
 
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Mac Mcleod
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Terwox wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
https://www.propublica.org/article/facebook-lets-advertisers...
Quote:

Imagine if, during the Jim Crow era, a newspaper offered advertisers the option of placing ads only in copies that went to white readers.

That’s basically what Facebook is doing nowadays.

The ubiquitous social network not only allows advertisers to target users by their interests or background, it also gives advertisers the ability to exclude specific groups it calls “Ethnic Affinities.” Ads that exclude people based on race, gender and other sensitive factors are prohibited by federal law in housing and employment.

Here is a screenshot of an ad we purchased in Facebook’s housing categories via the company’s advertising portal:

(image showing facebook supports excluding blacks, hispanics, and asians for a house ad).



see also
https://news.slashdot.org/story/16/10/28/2032203/facebook-le...


I hope facebook fixes this fast. If they don't, I hope they get treated with all due vigor.


Fixes? This is the reality of advertising.


There's a difference between selecting people of different races out of a crowd and selecting people out of a self selected mono-racial crowd.

In the U.S. it's illegal to do the first (say, only off my house to white people) and legal to do the second (buy advertising only in the klan magazine). The civil rights lawyer mentioned above didn't even feel it was an edge case.

Recall..
Quote:
prominent civil rights lawyer John Relman, he gasped and said, “This is horrifying. This is massively illegal. This is about as blatant a violation of the federal Fair Housing Act as one can find.


https://www.law.umich.edu/FacultyBio/Pages/FacultyBio.aspx?F...
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Mac wants Supreme Court nominees targeted to piss off a certain racial demographic but feigns indignation when FB dares offer advertisers those tools. Huh, that's like raaaaiiiaaaaaaaaaain on you wedding day.


What I really want to know is, why the fuck people who commonly argue the conservative position on other issues consistently come down on the pro-racist, pro discrimination side of issues. Over time, it becomes almost impossible not to conclude they are actually racist.

Let's see...

Lynching black men. Can we agree that's wrong?

Black people having sex with, falling in love with, marrying and having children with white people. Can we agree there is nothing wrong with that?


What conservative would disagree? Yet you smear all conservatives with this bullshit.

I think it's time for an intervention so we can get you out of the cult, safe and secure. Then I recommend several months deprogramming. I will even pitch in, because I think you can still be saved.


Since your party is about to take a huge rogering, I don't think you would be suited to lead anyone, to anything, but on how to lose.
 
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Mac Mcleod
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Drew1365 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Mac wants Supreme Court nominees targeted to piss off a certain racial demographic but feigns indignation when FB dares offer advertisers those tools. Huh, that's like raaaaiiiaaaaaaaaaain on you wedding day.


What I really want to know is, why the fuck people who commonly argue the conservative position on other issues consistently come down on the pro-racist, pro discrimination side of issues. Over time, it becomes almost impossible not to conclude they are actually racist.

Let's see...

Lynching black men. Can we agree that's wrong?

Black people having sex with, falling in love with, marrying and having children with white people. Can we agree there is nothing wrong with that?


What conservative would disagree? Yet you smear all conservatives with this bullshit.

I think it's time for an intervention so we can get you out of the cult, safe and secure. Then I recommend several months deprogramming. I will even pitch in, because I think you can still be saved.


Because we've seen bullshit like this from conservatives everytime the issue comes up. The black guy was shot because he deserved it. It wasn't really discrimination. Etc. etc.

But I notice that you didn't answer the questions either. Instead you asked a question and avoided making a statement and then followed it up with an ad hominem.

 
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Welcome to the world you leftist idiots wanted.
Enjoy your stay.
'moi' was "informed" that there would "B" sans "mathsmentally challenged" and yet, there's ONE! whistle
 
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Drew1365 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Mac wants Supreme Court nominees targeted to piss off a certain racial demographic but feigns indignation when FB dares offer advertisers those tools. Huh, that's like raaaaiiiaaaaaaaaaain on you wedding day.


What I really want to know is, why the fuck people who commonly argue the conservative position on other issues consistently come down on the pro-racist, pro discrimination side of issues. Over time, it becomes almost impossible not to conclude they are actually racist.

Let's see...

Lynching black men. Can we agree that's wrong?

Black people having sex with, falling in love with, marrying and having children with white people. Can we agree there is nothing wrong with that?


What conservative would disagree? Yet you smear all conservatives with this bullshit.

I think it's time for an intervention so we can get you out of the cult, safe and secure. Then I recommend several months deprogramming. I will even pitch in, because I think you can still be saved.


Because we've seen bullshit like this from conservatives everytime the issue comes up. The black guy was shot because he deserved it. It wasn't really discrimination. Etc. etc.


Really? Show me one conservative who said that a black guy was shot because black people deserve to be shot. Because that's what you seem to be saying.

You have accused conservatives here of saying interracial marriage is wrong. Show me one. You accuse conservatives here of approving of lynching. Show me one.

Or what was the point of your rhetorical question except to imply that it's difficult to find conservatives who disagree with your statements?



I didn't accuse conservatives here of lynching or disapproving of interracial. What I said was when we have racial issues crop up, it's the conservatives who always post that the issue isn't racism, the blacks are at fault, and the blacks are trouble makers.

Then I asked a couple simple questions, "Do you condemn lynching?", "do you approve of interracial marriages" to establish a boundary we could agree on.

The obvious trivial answers are

"OF COURSE I condemn whites lynching blacks".

and

"OF COURSE I approve of interracial marriage".

You've done a lot of squirming, made a lot of ad hominem attacks, and done a lot of pivoting but you still haven't given the obvious easy trivial expected answer to either question.

I couldn't be sure on the interracial issue tho since about 1/5 republicans still disapprove of interracial dating (much less marriage and children). By the odds, we probably have at least one conservative here who disapproves of interracial dating.



You've avoided answering the questions multiple times now. Why not simply say "of course whites lynching blacks is bad" and "of course I approve of interracial dating" and stop your nonsense.
 
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maxo-texas wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
maxo-texas wrote:
bjlillo wrote:
Mac wants Supreme Court nominees targeted to piss off a certain racial demographic but feigns indignation when FB dares offer advertisers those tools. Huh, that's like raaaaiiiaaaaaaaaaain on you wedding day.


What I really want to know is, why the fuck people who commonly argue the conservative position on other issues consistently come down on the pro-racist, pro discrimination side of issues. Over time, it becomes almost impossible not to conclude they are actually racist.

Let's see...

Lynching black men. Can we agree that's wrong?

Black people having sex with, falling in love with, marrying and having children with white people. Can we agree there is nothing wrong with that?


What conservative would disagree? Yet you smear all conservatives with this bullshit.

I think it's time for an intervention so we can get you out of the cult, safe and secure. Then I recommend several months deprogramming. I will even pitch in, because I think you can still be saved.


Because we've seen bullshit like this from conservatives everytime the issue comes up. The black guy was shot because he deserved it. It wasn't really discrimination. Etc. etc.


Really? Show me one conservative who said that a black guy was shot because black people deserve to be shot. Because that's what you seem to be saying.

You have accused conservatives here of saying interracial marriage is wrong. Show me one. You accuse conservatives here of approving of lynching. Show me one.

Or what was the point of your rhetorical question except to imply that it's difficult to find conservatives who disagree with your statements?



I didn't accuse conservatives here of lynching or disapproving of interracial. What I said was when we have racial issues crop up, it's the conservatives who always post that the issue isn't racism, the blacks are at fault, and the blacks are trouble makers.

Then I asked a couple simple questions, "Do you condemn lynching?", "do you approve of interracial marriages" to establish a boundary we could agree on.

The obvious trivial answers are

"OF COURSE I condemn whites lynching blacks".

and

"OF COURSE I approve of interracial marriage".

You've done a lot of squirming, made a lot of ad hominem attacks, and done a lot of pivoting but you still haven't given the obvious easy trivial expected answer to either question.

I couldn't be sure on the interracial issue tho since about 1/5 republicans still disapprove of interracial dating (much less marriage and children). By the odds, we probably have at least one conservative here who disapproves of interracial dating.



You've avoided answering the questions multiple times now. Why not simply say "of course whites lynching blacks is bad" and "of course I approve of interracial dating" and stop your nonsense.


You are an idiot. Michael brown is an idiot that got shot. The left made him into a black man that was executed by the cops? What's racist about saying an idiot got shot? The left injects race into anything they can. Zimmerman got a new term started, white Hispanic. You thing that came from the right? If Michael brown had been white I would still say he is an idiot that got shot, and the left wouldn't give a fuck since they wouldn't be able to start race riots over it.
 
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