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War of the Ring: Warriors of Middle-earth» Forums » Rules

Subject: Fathers of Trees rss

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Atanasije Stojkovic
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"Move all Ents back to Fangorn and recruit one Ent figure there. Then, you may take an Ent figure from Fangorn and place it in Old Forest to form a new Entwood.

If you do so, whenever an Ent Faction Event card refers to the Entwood, you may either use this Entwood or the Entwood in Fangorn (but not both)."

There is no mention of Companions in this case. Does it mean that the new Entwood located in the Old Forest does not require a Companion to be formed and maintained?
 
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Koolin
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It is not explicitly mentioned, so I would so that it is not the case. Probably it would mean that there should remain a companion in Fangorn to keep the Entwood in general active.
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David Williams
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All the rules say is that you must have a companion in Fangorn to bring the Ent faction into play, and they are eliminated if there isn't a companion in Fangorn. Nowhere in the rules does it state that any new Entwood must have a companion of its own.

So I would say no - you don't need a companion in Old Forest to start an Entwood there using this card. If that were the intention, it would say on the card. But it doesn't.

With rules queries in this game, the general rule is: If in doubt, don't make up rules that are not explicitly stated.
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Scott Schelter
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Orion3T wrote:
With rules queries in this game, the general rule is: If in doubt, don't make up rules that are not explicitly stated.


Is it not fair to say that about ANY game? Otherwise, when playing any game, I could MAKE UP the rule

"The player with the smelliest feet wins"

Or

"You win if you are wearing an item of clothing with stripes. If more than one player is wearing stripes, no one wins."

My point : who just makes up rules, anyway?
 
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David Williams
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Shelter wrote:
Orion3T wrote:
With rules queries in this game, the general rule is: If in doubt, don't make up rules that are not explicitly stated.


Is it not fair to say that about ANY game? Otherwise, when playing any game, I could MAKE UP the rule

"The player with the smelliest feet wins"

Or

"You win if you are wearing an item of clothing with stripes. If more than one player is wearing stripes, no one wins."

My point : who just makes up rules, anyway?


Arbitrarily? Not many people, not very often, I should imagine.

But that's not what I meant of course. This very thread is an example of what I meant - players seeing one rule, and then being tempted to apply the same rule under different circumstances, where the rules do not tell you to do so. Often there's a thematic argument along these lines:

"Well if X happens after Y, shouldn't it also happen after Z because it's a similar situation?"

Some games have badly written rules where designers missed things or forgot to mention them, so they come out with an FAQ saying "Yeah actually, X happens then as well.". But I have seen it happen in other games; basically players argue for Rules As Intended, which doesn't always match RAW.

That is not the case with War of the Ring, in my experience.

So, in this case there is no rule stating Entwoods must have a companion, or you must have a companion in Old Forest. So there's no justification in saying you do, as the OP was querying. It would also have been trivial to include such a requirement in the requirements for playing the card; they did not.

I'm not saying it was a silly or bad question; not in the slightest. I think it was a legitimate thing to wonder about, as the only other Entwood does require a companion and it makes thematic sense. I didn't mean to imply otherwise, it was just some general advise for how to rule this game if you're unsure about something and have nobody to ask.
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Atanasije Stojkovic
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To be fair, I didn't raise the question just for thematic reasons; the rulebook states that an Ent (in Fangorn) and a Companion form the Entwood, so I took the assumption up from there.
 
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David Williams
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Sargeras777 wrote:
To be fair, I didn't raise the question just for thematic reasons; the rulebook states that an Ent (in Fangorn) and a Companion form the Entwood, so I took the assumption up from there.


It doesn't have brackets, and it specifically says 'together' meaning the Ent and Companion must be in Fangorn to form the Entwood.

It would be trivial for them to have added the requirement to the card, so it would be a stretch to suggest that is required when it never explicitly says so.

It's an extrapolation of the stated rule to assume it applies to a card effect adding another Entwood, and experience tells us extrapolating from WotR rules is a mistake.

I'm not saying it's an unreasonable question, so there's no need to defend your decision to ask. I wasn't trying to be critical of you or anyone else for asking about it. If I gave that impression, I apologise.

I was just pointing out that experience tells us that since it isn't explicitly stated and could have been easily added on the card, then we shouldn't assume anything that's not explicitly stated. It's a handy general rule to bear in mind if you come across other rules queries, and might help resolve some situations at the table more quickly until clarification of found.
 
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David Williams
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BTW, since I'm not sure if you consider your question fully answered, here's a trick you may not be aware of.

If you click on the number next to a comment's green 'thumbs up' button it shows who 'approved' the comment. If you do that on my original comment, you can see it has been approved by by Kevin Chapman and Kristofer Bengtsson, who were WotR and WoME play testers. They are generally acknowledged as rules authorities for thise line of games and expansions.

While they haven't commented, I personally interpret their 'approvals' as saying I have the correct answer (actually Kevin even tipped me some gg - thanks Kevin!).

So, I think you can be pretty confident my answer was correct. I just say this in case you're still unsure, and because I wasn't aware of that feature until very recently myself.

EDIT - I also realised after posting tallgrant (Grant Johnson) is also a play tester but not someone I recognised as such immediately - sorry Grant!
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Atanasije Stojkovic
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Orion3T wrote:
BTW, since I'm not sure if you consider your question fully answered, here's a trick you may not be aware of.

If you click on the number next to a comment's green 'thumbs up' button it shows who 'approved' the comment. If you do that on my original comment, you can see it has been approved by by Kevin Chapman and Kristofer Bengtsson, who were WotR and WoME play testers. They are generally acknowledged as rules authorities for thise line of games and expansions.

While they haven't commented, I personally interpret their 'approvals' as saying I have the correct answer (actually Kevin even tipped me some gg - thanks Kevin!).

So, I think you can be pretty confident my answer was correct. I just say this in case you're still unsure, and because I wasn't aware of that feature until very recently myself.

EDIT - I also realised after posting tallgrant (Grant Johnson) is also a play tester but not someone I recognised as such immediately - sorry Grant!


I did not think the question was unanswered but meant to clarify the origin of my confusion.
 
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David Williams
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Sargeras777 wrote:
I did not think the question was unanswered but meant to clarify the origin of my confusion.


No worries! I was just making sure you knew you could be pretty confident in my answer. Also, you should not feel any need to justify your confusion. It happens to everyone sometimes!

If you were feeling a bit defensive due to my comment:

Quote:
With rules queries in this game, the general rule is: If in doubt, don't make up rules that are not explicitly stated.


Please don't.

It wasn't intended as criticism in any way, if that's how it came across then I apologise for poor wording on my part. I was just saying that with the rules for this line if you adopt the assumption that rules only apply to the situations explicitly stated, you will not go far wrong. The idea was to help resolve any future queries found during play with minimal interruption.
 
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