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Subject: Movement question: "as long as they do not stop there" rss

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Russ Williams
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rules wrote:
Emperors can move through provinces with another Emperor as long as they do not stop there.


"Stop" is ambiguous here. I.e. does it mean temporarily stop to do something else, or permanently stop at the end of the turn?

During movement, can I perform some other non-move action on a space with an emperor (subdue, attack, secure) as long as I move away afterward? Or is doing some non-move action considered "stopping" on the province?

I.e. can I move an emperor onto a province with another emperor and an unrest or revolt token, then spend IP to remove that token, then move away?

Similar question for moving onto a space occupied by another emperor and attacking an adjacent barbarian.

Similar question for placing a token on a space occupied by another emperor.

---

Also:

rules for attacking an barbarian army wrote:
Defeat: remove the Emperor, and any Emperor token,
from his province. He will re-enter the board at
the start of his next turn in ROMA or, if he wishes,
in his own capital as long as it is free of tokens or
Barbarian armies.

So an off-board emperor can enter the map at his capital or Rome if it is occupied by another emperor, as long as the active emperor then moves away, right?

PS: this is not mentioned in the similar combat rules for barbarians attacking an emperor; if the rules get edited again, it might make sense to put the discussion of how off-board emperors enter the board in the single location "I. Roman Phase", since it applies both to the start of the game as well as to later turns as a result of losing either type of battle, instead of currently distinguishing the 2 cases (in Setup about an emperor's first turn, even though it's technically not part of Setup but relevant during an emperor's turn, and in the Roman attack phase for later turns) and not explicitly explaining it in the 3rd case (in Barbarian advance).
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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russ wrote:
rules wrote:
Emperors can move through provinces with another Emperor as long as they do not stop there.
"Stop" is ambiguous here. I.e. does it mean temporarily stop to do something else, or permanently stop at the end of the turn?

During movement, can I perform some other non-move action on a space with an emperor (subdue, attack, secure) as long as I move away afterward? Or is doing some non-move action considered "stopping" on the province?

I.e. can I move an emperor onto a province with another emperor and an unrest or revolt token, then spend IP to remove that token, then move away?

Similar question for moving onto a space occupied by another emperor and attacking an adjacent barbarian.

Similar question for placing a token on a space occupied by another emperor.
No times 4!

There is no ambiguity. There is no "during movement" in this game, you spend your IP one at a time ("The Emperor can spend up to 6 IP in any of the following actions, in the order he wishes, and even perform a given action several times"). So you may Move several times (which is not a single Move through several provinces) and/or do other things that require you to stop on the province. Stop is opposite of Move. So you can Move into a province with another Emperor only if you Move (don't stop) on your next action.

russ wrote:
So an off-board emperor can enter the map at his capital or Rome if it is occupied by another emperor, as long as the active emperor then moves away, right?
Yes.

You can enter the board on a province occupied by another Emperor if your first action is not stopping there = if you Move on your first action. I don't think this requires reediting the rules, once you understand that each action is resolved one at a time, even when it is the same one, all these questions are clear... I think!
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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In essence, the only action you can take while on the same space as another Emperor is to Move, and you cannot end your turn there.
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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sdiberar wrote:
In essence, the only action you can take while on the same space as another Emperor is to Move, and you cannot end your turn there.

Exactly, that's what is meant by the rule: "Emperors can move through provinces with another Emperor as long as they do not stop there".

Do you really think that the rule should be reworded to "Emperors can move to provinces with another Emperor as long as they move away with their next action"? I don't see a significant difference...
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
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I understood the rule perfectly, but at least one other person has not.

It is art, not science, deciding between clarity and completeness.
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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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OK, if I have other things that would improve with some additional clarification, I may add those rewordings in the future... That's how the "Detailed Attack Example" went into the rulebook, and many players have told me how useful it was.

sdiberar wrote:
It is art, not science, deciding between clarity and completeness.
My next game is about science, so these things should be easier there!
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Russ Williams
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Thanks!

franchi wrote:
Do you really think that the rule should be reworded to "Emperors can move to provinces with another Emperor as long as they move away with their next action"? I don't see a significant difference...

I do think that would be clearer, yes. The problem is that "stop" is ambiguous/unclear, at least to me. ("stop your turn"? or "stop moving to do another action and then start moving again"?)
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OK, I'll think about it! meeple

I have re-read the rule in all three languages, and in Spanish and French it is even clearer, the equivalent form does mean "stop even momentarily". And what I realized in English is that, by taking the whole paragraph together, it seems clearer than with the last sentence only:

Each province space can only hold 1 figure (Emperor or Barbarian army) and 1 token. However, Emperors can move through provinces with another Emperor as long as they do not stop there.

Provinces cannot hold 2 Emperors. But the important thing is that now you know how to play the rule!

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HANJEL T
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Continuous improvement. thumbsup
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Deb Wentworth
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I found this thread because I had the same question as the OP.

Maybe something like this wording would help:

"An emperor may pass through a Provence occupied by another emperor when taking two consecutive movement actions."

Do I have it right?
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debwentworth wrote:
Maybe something like this wording would help:

"An emperor may pass through a Provence occupied by another emperor when taking two consecutive movement actions."

Do I have it right?

Exactly! I may reword it like this in the English rulebook.
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debwentworth wrote:
"An emperor may pass through a Provence occupied by another emperor when taking two consecutive movement actions."

I found this one better: "Each province space can only hold 1 figure (Emperor or Barbarian army) and 1 token. However, an Emperor may pass through a province occupied by another Emperor if he Moves away with his next action."

The notion of moving away (instead of taking two consecutive actions) helps clarifying also the other related situation, in which an Emperor comes back to the board on a province occupied by another Emperor (and then Moves away).

What do you think? Before I update the sentence in the rulebook...
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Deb Wentworth
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franchi wrote:
debwentworth wrote:
"An emperor may pass through a Provence occupied by another emperor when taking two consecutive movement actions."

I found this one better: "Each province space can only hold 1 figure (Emperor or Barbarian army) and 1 token. However, an Emperor may pass through a province occupied by another Emperor if he Moves away with his next action."

The notion of moving away (instead of taking two consecutive actions) helps clarifying also the other related situation, in which an Emperor comes back to the board on a province occupied by another Emperor (and then Moves away).

What do you think? Before I update the sentence in the rulebook...


I like it. very clear now, I think.
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Russ Williams
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franchi wrote:
debwentworth wrote:
"An emperor may pass through a Provence occupied by another emperor when taking two consecutive movement actions."

I found this one better: "Each province space can only hold 1 figure (Emperor or Barbarian army) and 1 token. However, an Emperor may pass through a province occupied by another Emperor if he Moves away with his next action."

The notion of moving away (instead of taking two consecutive actions) helps clarifying also the other related situation, in which an Emperor comes back to the board on a province occupied by another Emperor (and then Moves away).

What do you think? Before I update the sentence in the rulebook...

Starting in a space doesn't sound quite like "passing through" to me.

Would there be any disadvantage to making the 2 specific cases more explicitly clear, saying something like:

"An emperor which starts their turn in their capital occupied by another emperor or which moves into a space occupied by another emperor must immediately move away."

?
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I already modified the three rulebooks and sent to Néstor! The sentence reads now:

Each province space can only hold 1 figure (Emperor or Barbarian army) and 1 token. However, Emperors may pass through a province occupied by another Emperor if they move away with their next action.

This, together with:

Each Emperor starts his first turn in ROMA or, if he wishes, his own capital as long as it is free of tokens or Barbarian armies.

(therefore there could be another Emperor) makes things quite clear, I think. Your suggestion too, but the rules are formatted already so that they fit, together with the variants, in 4 pages for the three languages. More extended wording would break this format, and I think it is clear enough already.

Thanks for all the inputs!

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Miguel (working on TENNISmind...)
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franchi wrote:
I already modified the three rulebooks and sent to Néstor!

Already updated on the game page at nestorgames!
 
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