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Sergeants Miniatures Game: Day of Days» Forums » Rules

Subject: SHOW Pre-Release Rules Comments rss

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Jeffery McCulloch
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Please use this thread for commenting on the pre-release SHOW rules. Let's do this:

1. Please do not hijack this thread with your own agenda. This makes it easier for me to find the important stuff.
2. Please refer to issues in the rules in the following format, in italics: [Page #] - [Section Title] - [Comment]. For example (real examples, by the way):

Page 40 - Ammo Loadouts - The main gun ammo types for a JagdTiger are Special and HE. Does this mean that I can only have 12VP of Special ammo since it is not explicitly listed as AP? It is the tank-destroyer's AP round after all. Maybe the rule should be that everything listed below HE on the Ammo chart is limited by this rule.

Page 17 - Facing - This rule conflicts with that on Page 23, Target Aspect. Facing also includes the corners, so there are eight directions that may be faced in a square.

Page 1 - Contents - The page assignments go out of whack starting at Page 6.

You get the idea.

Thanks.

 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Update...

Here is the link to the rules:

http://www.lostbattaliongames.com/download/SergeantsHellonWh...
 
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Mayor Jim
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Wow...44 pages! Though the TOC says 47? Thanks for the link...
 
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Peter
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All Pages -- All Sections -- The sections need numbers. Numbers on sections are incredibly helpful for the reader to identify and find rules by number.

Ideally, individual subsections also have numbers.

1.0 Introduction
2.0 Components
3.0 Soldiers
3.1 Crew
3.1.1 Crew Roles

etc

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Jeffery McCulloch
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d2necro wrote:
All Pages -- All Sections -- The sections need numbers. Numbers on sections are incredibly helpful for the reader to identify and find rules by number.

Ideally, individual subsections also have numbers.

1.0 Introduction
2.0 Components
3.0 Soldiers
3.1 Crew
3.1.1 Crew Roles

etc



I added this to the change list. Since it is a formatting change, we'll see if it gets approved.
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Todd
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P7-8 - radio use - the diagram of the Sherman shows the Commander directly connected to the radio by the fire icon, so I understand he can use the radio. Can the loader position also use the radio since I can derive a path to the radio through to it or does it have to be directly connedted to the loader position?
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Maus wrote:
P7-8 - radio use - the diagram of the Sherman shows the Commander directly connected to the radio by the fire icon, so I understand he can use the radio. Can the loader position also use the radio since I can derive a path to the radio through to it or does it have to be directly connedted to the loader position?


I'm going to delete that line as it will cause confusion. The Crewman occupying the location as indicated by the Soldier/Crewman Card slot can use the radio. In the case of the Sherman, it is the Commander location as "Radio" is printed on the Commander card slot.
 
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James Monson
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Is there going to be some way to tell which guns have a location and which do not? While this isn't necessarily about the rules, I noticed in the example on page 8 that says,

"For example, the M4 Sherman on the chart below shows a .50cal MG. This weapon is not shown as a location on the Vehicle/Gun View, so a Soldier/Crewman must be located on the Vehicle’s “deck” in order to fire it."

The Vehicle/Gun Chart for the Sherman has 3 Shoot boxes and the Vehicle/Gun view has 3 spots for guns. If one doesn't know about the armament of the Sherman they might think that the .50cal MG would be one of the location guns.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Jcmonson wrote:
Is there going to be some way to tell which guns have a location and which do not? While this isn't necessarily about the rules, I noticed in the example on page 8 that says,

"For example, the M4 Sherman on the chart below shows a .50cal MG. This weapon is not shown as a location on the Vehicle/Gun View, so a Soldier/Crewman must be located on the Vehicle’s “deck” in order to fire it."

The Vehicle/Gun Chart for the Sherman has 3 Shoot boxes and the Vehicle/Gun view has 3 spots for guns. If one doesn't know about the armament of the Sherman they might think that the .50cal MG would be one of the location guns.


I'll see if I can reword it to make it clearer. The problem is I only have a finite set of vehicle panels to examine to make any kind of generalization. What I see the need for is a separate document describing the "vehicles of Sergeants: Hell on Wheels" at some point so specific details can be addressed as well as game tactics. I've noted your concern and will address it in the rules.
 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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Hi all.

I'm only at Page 12, but I thought I'd share what I have.

Page 5

Under Soldier:

The first sentence is a bit hard to read. How about:
“In Sergeants D-Day, the term Crew was used for infantry weapons Crews and Teams, including machine-Guns, light and medium mortars, anti-tank rockets, and so forth. It is important to note that in this rule book, the term Crew is limited to representing the Teams that work together on Vehicles, and heavier ordnance referred to in these rules as “Guns”.

Page 7/8

Vehicle /Gun View:
The Fire Icons are mentioned but not explained as to what they do/stand for, why they are fire, or what the connection represents. If anyone connected to the radio by fire can use the Radio, Than can the Assistant Driver and the Gunner both use the Turret MG? They are both connected to it via fire etc.

It may be easier to have Deck mounted weapons (50. Cal on Sherman) to say “Deck” above the weapon. I realize this is a panel change and not rule change, but it would make things easier. No reason future panels can't have this.

Page 10

Under Purchasing Equipment:

The note that these rules replace previous rules might be more helpful if it were bold or colored or something.

Page 12

Under Sight:

I feel it should be noted how Optics changes the sighting rules. Something like "For sighting with crew with Optics, see page___".

Acquiring a Target:

First, I would drop "target previously spotted" This can be interpreted as a target that was spotted then played a Hide action and is now NOT Spotted, but was previously.

Second, Would it be better to say When acquiring a target, the Player uses a Sight test against a currently Spotted unit. If the Player's crew can still successfully Spot the selected unit, then the test is passed and the Player may move the turret or hull to bring the target into the their units firing arc. ---or something like that.

General Spotter Markers:

To be consistant with capitalizing Vehicle and Gun, then called artillery should be capitalized as well. Or it could be rephrased as Off-Board Artillery?

Are Tracers only a SDD thing? The rules read that way. I would mention them somewhere before they are mentioned in the SD only section.

Also, A note should be made that when an enemy shoots or preforms an action that causes him to be spotted, he is spotted by ALL enemy units and thus may acquire several spotted markers.

I'll look at more as I can. I agree with James and Todd.

Thanks for all your work Jeff.

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Jeffery McCulloch
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Thanks Mr. McVay. I captured what you have and will address it.

Also, ignore the Roadblocks and Barricades rules. I wrote something that JB rewrote and I can't figure it out, so I'm rewriting that whole section.

Jeff
 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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Page 13

Radio Contact:

Is a radio contact action a free action once the requirements are met? If so that should be clearly stated.

Sight-radio contact:

I would re-title as Radio Contact-Sight and would adjust the rules to say that a radio call allows two friendly units to share a single spotted target. A Spot can be a given or received if I understand the rule right.

Artillery-radio contact

I would re-title as Radio Contact-Artillery. Can the radioing unit call down fire on ANY spotted square, or ONLY one spotted by the radioing unit. I assume the later and would make that clearer.

Page 14

Command:

Last sentence. Should not be “officer’s” Should be …whether they are an Officer or not.

Page 15

How to Move:

I would explicitly state that each Move Action can be used to buy a Move+. I would also place the information that the move modifiers affect the unit leaving the square not entering it, at the beginning of the paragraph.

Page 16

Move chart-what does the S,R, and T stand for? Slow, Rough, and Track needed? I forget and I'm sure people will ask.

Page 17

Move:

The blue example should be moved up one sentence as it should follow the rule. The sentence in between them about either open or road movement should be below the example and made its own sentence.

The next paragraph about untrained soldiers should also say “See page ___: Untrained Soldier as Crew”

Bog Checks:

A chart would be easier to present the damage check information. Also, should the example be in italics blue like other examples?

Road Vehicle Movement:

First word, "Vehicle" should be plural. I would rewrite the last sentence to something like: “A vehicle may not move on roads and open areas in the same action. Once a vehicle enters or leaves a road, its Move action ends immediately. Just be a bit more clear.

Passing:

Is ramming a thing? I feel if I’m in a tank and there is a jeep in front of me…you get the idea. Just say’n. If ramming isn't a ting, it should be stated I think.






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Jeffery McCulloch
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Captured and will work on it. Thanks.
 
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Chris Ganshaw
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When working through the Shoot rules, the examples given should be tied to the Sherman panel in the rule book. I think it would make more sense if you were able to look at the Sherman panel and see what is being discussed.
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Jeff Pseudonym
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Page 18

Mount/Dismount:

Sixth paragraph. “A Vehicle must be stopped or Moving 1 square to dismount Soldiers. Vehicles that Move 2 or more squares, or have a Move+ or Move ++ marker may not dismount Soldiers during the phase.” I would clearer to state “A vehicle can be dismounted ONLY if the vehicle is stopped or Moves no more than one square during the Phase.
It should also be noted that to Mount a vehicle, the vehicle must be stopped. I assume it must be stopped. Who jumps on a moving tank?!
Also, can soldiers start the game mounted on the vehicle? Yes or no should be mentioned.

Page 19

Dismounted Crew Movement:

Can crew whose tank becomes permanently disabled leave the map in order to protect their VPs? I feel they should. If so, the crew should be allowed to leave the map square to head to the closest available exit point and only be allowed Move and Hide Actions.

Vehicle Panel Crew Movement:

The Spare Ammo is outside the tank?! It seems Tracks, Wheels, Engine, and Drive-train would be outside, but Spare and Ready ammo was inside of the tank.

Combat Contact:

Second paragraph, I would replace “…and possibly…” with “including”.
Are vehicles immediately Spotted when moved into Combat Contact?
Last sentence of the second paragraph could be clearer.
I would give a separate paragraph to vehicle-on-vehicle Combat Contact. Something like. “When two (or more) opposing vehicles are in the same map square, they are limited to Shoot and Move actions.”

Page 20

Shooting in Close Combat:

The first blue example, last sentence. I would change “You then do damage check normally” with “You then apply damage checks normally”.
Last paragraph, I would add in “results applied”. So it would read like “Once all Shoot actions are completed and results are applied, proceed to the next step and determine Combat Initiative”.
Question about crew in Combat Contact. Only two per hatch, however, must the crew be in the SAME area of the vehicle? If someone is fighting a tank via the Commander’s hatch, can the Commander and the Driver be the one fighting? The Driver and the Assistant Driver? I would add that “The two crew involved in the fight must be in the same vehicle section (hull, turret etc) as the hatch being attacked and one of them must be crewman stationed at the attacked hatch if that location is occupied. Hopefully better worded than what I just said. This is talked about in the example but not in the rules. Unless I missed it somewhere.

Page 21

Grenades and Tanks. Are grenades attacks on crew in compartments spread to EVERYONE in the compartment and not the whole tank correct? I would explicitly state that on page 20 where blasts are talked about.

Quick Note

Under Action Cards on page 10. It should be noted how SHOW cards use Wreck, Fire, and Critical while Regular Sergeants cards use Kill, Wound. When pulling for damage of a Soldier or Crew, Wreck, Damage, and Critical translate to Zip. When pulling damage checks for a vehicle, Kill and Wound will equally translate into a Zip. Again, please phrase that better than I.

Also, Under Action Cards. It should state how when playing Vehicles, each vehicle will have its own Action deck, along with a combined action Deck for separate troops that the player may wish to field. And how the Vehicles Action Deck will include all Action cards for the vehicle and its crew. I would also talk about Teams that work with the vehicle and how their cards will also be in the Vehicles Action deck to represent combined/trained arms.

Page 22

Prisoners:

What is going to happen is, a soldier is going to capture the crew, then the other team will assault the escort and perhaps capture him. I assume the crew must be escorted with the prisoner off the board. Is the crew counted against the 2-person limit for escorting soldiers? Not that I am against the rule, but I foresee complications and what-ifs in the future here.

Equipment:

Last paragraph says equipment with a NO on the chart can be equipped without limit. I would mention that the limit of how many VPs you have to spend on a given mission are still a limiting factor.

Page 23

Recovering Equipment:

I would not say “Vehicles and Guns are large enough that they are recovered automatically”. I would say that a searching soldier does not need to make an Identity Check as they automatically succeed.


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Jeff Pseudonym
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While I'm thinking of it, can Tank Riders Hide? I would not think so. If not it should be mentioned.

Also, I'm reading this page by page so forgive me if I suggest to add something and its there, but I haven't reviewed that far yet.

 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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Page 24

Show Note-Chain Checks

I would move this down to the page where chain checks are talked about like Page 27.

Page 25

Shooting Arc Example.

I realize we are looking at a low-res map, but are the map numbers that are referenced in the example clear and large enough to read in the final version? Otherwise I would highlight or somehow point out the specific map tiles the example uses.

Shooting at dismounted Crew:

That is one big run on sentence. Perhaps something like this:
Dismounted Crew who are specifically targeted by Shooting Soldiers gain some measure of protection from the vehicle due to their familiarity with their equipment. However, the Crewman must be on an identified exterior location on the Vehicle/Gun view (example: Track, Engine, or Drive Train). The Crew receive protection from Shooting equal to one-half of the lowest armor value of the Vehicle’s Turret or Cabin, (whichever is lower) rounded down (or up?) as a reduction to the total number of Hits they receive.

Page 26

Shooting at Unbuttoned Crew:

This is also stated under the Look part dealing with Unbuttoned Crew. Not necessarily a bad thing, but I thought I’d point out the redundancy.

Page 27

Tracers:

The example is really an example. I would replace with an example of a Greyhound (or whatever) firing a weapon with tracers at a Tiger. Because the weapon has Tracers, the Tiger becomes spotted to all allied soldiers but NOT to an allied Sherman.


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Jeff Pseudonym
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How long until this review is over? Sunday night?
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Hanomag wrote:
How long until this review is over? Sunday night?


Monday night is the cutoff. Once I get all comments I have to create/modify the rules, then send them upstream for final comment/discussion and incorporation into the rulebook.
 
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Chris Ganshaw
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I would have liked to see some small blurb about the creation of the Action Deck. Between Crew cards, Vehicle/Gun cards and Tactics cards, I think it is different enough from the base game to warrant mention.

If I understand correctly, the core rules will be getting a "brush up" shortly and perhaps this will be covered there. Still I believe the building of an Action Deck in SHOW would be different enough to be touched upon in this rules set.
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Banor58 wrote:
I would have liked to see some small blurb about the creation of the Action Deck. Between Crew cards, Vehicle/Gun cards and Tactics cards, I think it is different enough from the base game to warrant mention.

If I understand correctly, the core rules will be getting a "brush up" shortly and perhaps this will be covered there. Still I believe the building of an Action Deck in SHOW would be different enough to be touched upon in this rules set.


Great point. I'll add it.
 
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Jeff Pseudonym
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Page 29

Damage Against the Crew:

I think this could be a little clearer. So we continue to pull cards to check for damage until the shot is resolved. Whenever a damage result is to Crew and the damage applied to Crew (such as kill, wound, pin with the blast icon) we hold that card out. Once all the damage card pulls from the shot is resolved, we go back to the crew applicable damage and pull ID checks until we find who took the damage. Correct? Maybe it’s me, but I had to reread that a few times to get it and I’ve played it before.

Damage Against the Square:

I would replace “exposed crew” in the example with “dismounted and unbuttoned crew”

Repair a Wreck:

The example should be in italics blue

Also, question: So to Play a Repair Wreck Action, It has to be an Action Card played that has the repairing Soldier’s Dog Tag or the Vehicles License Plate? I find the Repair Action part of the description confusing. Perhaps if Repair Action had its own section?

Fire:

Rule Question 1: The Fire spreads after the Phase ends. I believe the Phase that the fire started on should be exempt. Otherwise I feel the Fire could get out of control VERY fast before the Player had a realistic chance to do anything about it.
Rule Question 2: I would prefer that when Fire spreads to where Crew are it should automatically cause them to Bail Out not kill them.
I bring these up because killing or crippling a 100 VP vehicle in SHOW should be an accomplishment and not feel too “sorry ‘bout your luck”.
Rule Question 3: Maybe I missed it, but is there a rule on a vehicle being in a square with Fire? I know Soldiers take One Blast Check at the beginning of the Phase but nothing about Vehicles. I would think Vehicles would take more Blast Checks. Something to really make you want to NOT be in a box loaded with fuel and ammo in the middle of fire.

Page 34

Incendiary Weapons:

Number 4 does not make sense to me. If the damage location is Crew and the damage result is always Fire then for the Crew the damage is always Zip? I would thing that *Vehicle* Damage is always Fire. Crew damage would/could be:
1. Pull X amount of damage checks for the crewman who was unbuttoned and they bailout. Their space is now on Fire.
2. The unbuttoned crewman automatically dies and their space is now on Fire
3. All crew in that section pull damage checks and the one whose unbuttoned hatch was attacked bails and is replaced with Fire.
I like #1.

Page 35

Pop Smoke:

The last part of the last paragraph describes Taking cover very well. I would move it to the Taking Cover section of the rules and just state “See: Taking Cover Page whatever.”

Page 36:

Vehicles as roadblocks:

Food for thought. Either an immobilized vehicle can be passed as per normal passing rules or (and I like this one) when trying to pass an ENEMY vehicle, the enemy vehicle it treated as a roadblock.

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Jeffery McCulloch
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Just a reminder that today is the last days for comments before the rules go into pre-production and final layout.
 
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Michael Bowker
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Page 9 - Soldier/Crew cards are placed in the card positions on the Team Panel and are treated as Tactics Teams for all rules governing them.

Since some people may have older rules still or not use the tactics panels it might be worth noting at the end of the section where the tactics rules are located in both SDD and SMG. That way any new players getting into the system because of SHOW know where to look right off the bat.
 
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Jeffery McCulloch
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Thanks, Michael. Will do.
 
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