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Subject: Card idea: rampage rss

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Pierre Beri
France
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I was wondering if something like this had been considered at NSG:
Quote:
When this Carnivore attacks a species, it may attack it twice.
On the second attack, the attacked species’ body size and defensive traits are ignored.


The point of this is:
– eating faster
– decreasing opponents’ herbivore population faster (so that your own eat more)
– saving cards with Intelligence (negate once, attack twice)
– making it possible to attack nearly burrowed species, minimizing the effect of horns (including pack-hunting rampaging carnivore vs horns), etc.
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Aernout Casier
Netherlands
Nijmegen
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Re: Card idea: vicious
There is no need to make Carnivores stronger, especially not when it also makes herbivores weaker. The balance now is close to perfect.
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Brandon Jacobson
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Re: Card idea: vicious
It's a fun idea, though -- almost like Foraging for Carnivores.
I like that it takes up a trait spot that would otherwise be available for that Carnivore to more easily ignore defensive traits, survive the Climate, etc. It would definitely punish that Carnivore, at the least through constantly depleting your hand. I think it could have some credence.
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Pierre Beri
France
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Re: Card idea: vicious
AernoutMJC wrote:
There is no need to make Carnivores stronger, especially not when it also makes herbivores weaker. The balance now is close to perfect.
The balance in this game is made by players because the game is so tactical.

Vicious takes up 1 slot on the carnivore, so it has fewer slots for pack hunting and intelligence, therefore fewer slots to guarantee it can attack once at all.

Now I’m not saying my suggestion is perfect, it’s an off-the-top-of-my-head idea and certainly needs some finetuning.
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Matt Parker
United States
Saint Charles
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Re: Card idea: vicious
This seems very over powered. not only would the carnivore get a free attack, but the herbivore loses ALL defenses on the second attack. Ouch. I can see a vicious carnivore tearing through an ecosystem and driving species' to extinction every round. No balance in the game and no balance in the thematic ecosystem.

I do like the idea of a particularly blood thirsty carnivore though. What about:

Vicious: If this carnivore makes a successful attack, it may immediately attack the same species again. If the second attack is used, the carnivore the carnivore gains one extra meat food, but can not attack again this round.

So, basically, if the carnivore goes ape shit it gets an immediate extra attack and a little more food, but spends the rest of the round licking its wounds. Carnivores with high population would struggle with this trait, especially if all the prey were small in body size. but in an environment where all the prey were mid-size or larger, a vicious carnivore would do well. While prey tends to go for high body size usually, if a vicious carnivore evolves, it would be wiser to stay small and increase population instead.
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Pierre Beri
France
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Re: Card idea: vicious
CenozoicMatt wrote:
I can see a vicious carnivore tearing through an ecosystem and driving species' to extinction every round.
A vicious carnivore will quickly be filled up, so how can it tear through the whole world?

Also, unlike pack hunting and intelligence, Vicious does not help you attack successfully, so a vicious carnivore is more at risk of starving, that’s how I see it.
 
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Jim Kiefer
United States
Fremont
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Re: Card idea: vicious
By definition carnivores are vicious. Killing and tearing the flesh from creatures is already vicious. Also can you give an example in nature that inspired your idea.
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Pierre Beri
France
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mageith wrote:
By definition carnivores are vicious. Killing and tearing the flesh from creatures is already vicious. Also can you give an example in nature that inspired your idea.
I actually meant "rampaging". OP edited.

As to examples in nature, you could think of hornets that rampage and ravage hives and wolves that upset shepherds.
 
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Pat Connolly
United States
Zephyrhills
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mageith wrote:
By definition carnivores are vicious. Killing and tearing the flesh from creatures is already vicious. Also can you give an example in nature that inspired your idea.
Bluefish can be like this. A school of bluefish will tear through a group of bait fish, killing everything they can and gorging themselves before regurgitating and then eating more. That's what made them so much fun to fish for when I was younger.
 
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Jim Kiefer
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Fat tissue would seem to cover Bluefish and maybe wolves. I think rampage is too rare and too powerful. I wouldn't use it. Also the rampager should not receive food points for food not consumed. I could see the target losing two population instead of gaining food or fat tissue.
 
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Brian Mertz
United States
Missouri
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CenozoicMatt wrote:


I do like the idea of a particularly blood thirsty carnivore though. What about:
Vicious: If this carnivore makes a successful attack, it may immediately attack the same species again. If the second attack is used, the carnivore the carnivore gains one extra meat food, but can not attack again this round.


I agree that this would be way overpowered for the carnivores, and defeats the whole purpose of having defenses.

How about:

Vicious/Rampage: If this carnivore makes a successful attack, it may immediately attack the same species again. The carnivore can attack a second time, but gains no food.

The idea behind this is that the carnivore is so angry that it doesn't care about food, it just wants to attack and kill for sport.

This would be useful if a carnivore has plenty of animals to attack, but doesn't have enough body size to attack anyone else. This card would allow you to do double the damage, but only be filled up half as much.
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Brandon Jacobson
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GeneralGerbil wrote:


How about:

Vicious/Rampage: If this carnivore makes a successful attack, it may immediately attack the same species again. The carnivore can attack a second time, but gains no food.

The idea behind this is that the carnivore is so angry that it doesn't care about food, it just wants to attack and kill for sport.


I like this idea, because, as stated earlier, this trait takes up a spot which would otherwise be used to help your Carnivore to get past defenses (ie Intelligence, Pack Hunting, etc.).

That being said, I suggest that we make a larger distinction between the roles of dealing damage vs bypassing defenses.

What if Carnivores with Vicious/Rampaging had to deal with defenses the same on every attack? So if you're feeding off of a species with Horns and don't have Intelligence, both of you would lose 2 Population.
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Pierre Beri
France
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GeneralGerbil wrote:
Vicious/Rampage: If this carnivore makes a successful attack, it may immediately attack the same species again. The carnivore can attack a second time, but gains no food.
I’m quite sure I would not use this as you do not gain anything. It’s just one opponent losing something.
 
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Brian Mertz
United States
Missouri
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Yep, that was my overall idea. I think eliminating all defenses would be too powerful anyway.

The only iffy thing would be is if scavenger would be applied, but I think it would since realistically just because the species is tearing the animal apart, doesn't mean the food isn't edible after anyway.
 
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Brian Mertz
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I disagree Beri. I often play some people whose strategy is to gain as many cards as possible because they try to get as many species in the beginning. This card would help prevent that.

This could also be useful for a species who's really strong in collecting food from the watering hole, but did so by eliminating its defenses knowing that it could only be attacked maybe once a round. This card would help balance that out and keep that species in check to focus on defenses to adapt.

It's not overly powered, but I think it could be beneficial in some cases where people get complacent in thinking that there are no need for defenses.
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Matt Parker
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Aside from just tearing down your opponent with a vicious carnivore, having Scavenger take effect for both the first and second attack would be a great secondary reason to use this trait.

For instance, lets say you have a vicious carnivore and then one or more species with scavenger. If your carnivore attacks once, it gets food (as do all the scavengers). At that point, your carnivore could be full, but could still attack again due to the Vicious trait. This would benefit all your scavengers.

So, sure it creates a serious threat to other player's species', but it could be used to give your own species a benefit as well. As well as any other players who see what that Carnivore is up to and can act accordingly with their own scavenger cards.

After all, in the real world, if a vicious carnivore evolves that just starts killing other animals left and right and isn't bothering to even eat them, then evolving to be a scavenger is a smart move. Free food everywhere. So it works thematically. Once someone makes a Vicious Carnivore, expect Scavenger to be popping up a lot!
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Matt Parker
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To add to myself...

To clean up and clarify the trait a bit better:

Vicious: When this Carnivore makes a successful attack, it may immediately attack the same species again. All costs and results of the second attack occur normally except that the Carnivore eats no Meat Food.

Other thoughts:

-This card would enhance the ability for Carnivores to control and battle other species. It's a mean card since it doesn't so much build your species up as it does wear other species' down, but Trample and Pest do this as well. Neither of those cards provide a clear benefit to the species that possesses them, they just make life harder for everyone else. Vicious would be the same.

-Vicious, as noted, would have some fun synergy with Scavenger. I wonder if you had a Vicious Carnivore with Cooperation if the neighbor to the right would still receive Meat Food? I think so...?

-I was wondering if there would need to be a counter to this card. But really, any and all of the defensive cards could be a counter to Vicious. A Carnivore needs to bypass all defensive cards and body size regardless of whether they have Vicious or not. Vicious would just provide more incentive to develop these traits.

-Defensive cards that would be especially good against a Vicious Carnivore would be Horns (causing the Carnivore to potentially lose two population), Quills (which makes it so a Carnivore can not attack this species twice in a Feeding Phase), and the Poisonous Body card that I've suggested in another thread (which would hurt the Carnivore's population).
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Brandon Jacobson
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CenozoicMatt wrote:

Vicious: When this Carnivore makes a successful attack, it may immediately attack the same species again. All costs and results of the second attack occur normally except that the Carnivore eats no Meat Food.

...

-Vicious, as noted, would have some fun synergy with Scavenger. I wonder if you had a Vicious Carnivore with Cooperation if the neighbor to the right would still receive Meat Food? I think so...?


I like the trait as is, well done.
As far as your Cooperation question, I would say that it would not activate on the second attack. It doesn't meet Cooperation's condition:


Quote:
When this species takes food , your species to the right takes 1 food from the same source.

 
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Brandon Jacobson
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...on second thoight...

Why is the second attack optional?

If this really is a Vicious Carnivore, I don't think it would ever be satisfied to simply attack once.

That being said, there are more important things to think about than thematics

What was your reasoning behind such?
 
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Matt Parker
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*Slaps Forehead*

Good call, you are totally right. How about:

Vicious: When this Carnivore makes a successful attack, it must immediately attack the same species a second time. All costs and results of the second attack occur normally except that the Carnivore receives no Meat Food.

Not only does making the second attack a requirement feel very thematic because a vicious carnivore won't be able to stop itself, but it helps to balance the card a little better too. Vicious carnivores can be a real threat to the target players, but if the prey responds with defenses quickly, the vicious carnivore would be in rough shape. The player with this bloodthirsty beast could easily be forced to attack a species with Horns twice or one of his/her own species twice! Double edged sword. Very cool.
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Pierre Beri
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I can also see the situation where the carnivore would not want to kill twice on every attack because its meat sources will be depleted too fast.
 
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Matt Parker
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Huh? You mean it's population would drop too fast?

Because as it's currently written, the Carnivore would not take meat the second time.

Or do you mean that the Carnivore would be in trouble because it's only getting one attacks worth of food for every two drop in its preys population? That could be an issue for the Carnivore. It could wipe out its prey species too fast.
 
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Pierre Beri
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CenozoicMatt wrote:
Or do you mean that the Carnivore would be in trouble because it's only getting one attacks worth of food for every two drop in its preys population? That could be an issue for the Carnivore. It could wipe out its prey species too fast.
This.
 
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Brandon Jacobson
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CenozoicMatt wrote:
Or do you mean that the Carnivore would be in trouble because it's only getting one attacks worth of food for every two drop in its preys population? That could be an issue for the Carnivore. It could wipe out its prey species too fast.


Yes, this is definitely possible, but I honestly feel it is an appropriate downside to the trait.

It would make it worth your while to consider putting scavenger on this species (or cooperation on the species on his left) if your food sources were being depleted too quickly, whether to scavenge from the attacks of your Vicious Carnivore or even to have your Vicious Carnivore take a back seat, feeding other species of yours instead, while another Carnivore (yours or an opponents') lets him eat scraps.
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Matt Parker
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GeneralGerbil and I have agreed on the text and art for a prototype of this card that we will begin playtesting soon.

We already have a question with this card: If, after the first attack, the Vicious Carnivore is full, does it still attack again? A full species usually can't feed, but Vicious might be a special case... Hmmm

In the meantime, check out GeneralGerbil's amazing skills in graphic design and feel free to comment/critique this card. I'll let you know how it plays!

NOTE: I do not own the art or card format in these images. I am not affiliated with North Star Games in any way. Just a fan having some fun. These are custom cards made for my amusement only. Neither GeneralGerbil nor myself will sell or trade these cards to you or build other custom cards for you, so do not ask. Thanks!
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