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Pax Renaissance Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can ability "Your cards cannot be silenced" be silenced? rss

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Rafał Kruczek
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Is general rule that card abilities have priority over general rules mean that cards with "Your cards cannot be silenced" and bishop on them are active?
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Phil Eklund
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In the glossary it says:

ABILITY (B4) - A special rule listed on a card is effective as long as the card is unsilenced and in a tableau. Ability effects are cumulative.


Therefore, I say that this ability can be silenced by a bishop.


In most Pax games, a "golden rule" is included that states that rules on cards supersede rules in the book. However, Pax Renaissance does not have such a rule, because I am attempting to make the game work without recourse to such a hierarchy. I may come to regret this.
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Rafał Kruczek
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phileklund wrote:
In the glossary it says:

ABILITY (B4) - A special rule listed on a card is effective as long as the card is unsilenced and in a tableau. Ability effects are cumulative.


Therefore, I say that this ability can be silenced by a bishop.


In most Pax games, a "golden rule" is included that states that rules on cards supersede rules in the book. However, Pax Renaissance does not have such a rule, because I am attempting to make the game work without recourse to such a hierarchy. I may come to regret this.

So what happens when there are two or more such cards in tableaux? Would they protect each other?
I have Humanism and Hermetism in my tableaux.
My opponent places bishop on Humanism. But it is not silenced because Hermetism ability protects it. So I have two active protection abilities. If opponent now moves second bishop on Hermetism, there are two separate protection abilities- so they are both active, or both inactive after the move.
 
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Phil Eklund
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The glossary definitions are intended to be overarching.
Therefore both the bishops would effectively silence the Abilities.
As I said last time, I am nervous about leaving out the golden rule.
If someone points out problems with enacting the abilities appropriately, I may be forced to add a golden rules saying that card rules supersede glossary definitions. If so, I will have to do an embarrassing abou face on my ruling. But the intention was to make the glossary definitions fundamental, so that the glossary is to the rules like a dictionary to a language.
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Mustafa Tolga CORAPCI
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Well, with the current wordings it is difficult to understand how they will be both silenced as this is not a simultaneous act. Logic dictates that they protect each other because one of the cards would be "unsilenced" at the arrival of bishop.

Besides, if the glossary prevails over the card text, the card text wouldn't function in the first place would-it? Because the wording of the card contradicts the Glossary to provide an exception to the general rule.

If Phil would like to keep both cards "vulnerable to Bishops" he may errata cards which such an addition: <ability ... as long as there is no Bishop on this card. So the card text conditions its application by its own text extension without needing help from the Glossary (to which it provides an exception).

 
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Sir Turquine II wrote:
Well, with the current wordings it is difficult to understand how they will be both silenced as this is not a simultaneous act. Logic dictates that they protect each other because one of the cards would be "unsilenced" at the arrival of bishop.

The rules do not defining silencing as an act performed by the arrival of a Bishop.

Rather, they defined "Silenced" as the state of an op or ability determined by the presence of a Bishop.

Thus, the order or timing of arrival of the Bishops should not be a factor. I wait until I want to use an op or an ability, and then I check to see whether a Bishop is present.
 
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I'll note here that the two cards in question are Hermeticism (ability Syncretism) and Humanism (ability Collegium Trinigue).

(I do this because Hermeticism is not mentioned earlier in this thread, and thus it didn't come up when I did a search for that term.)

I'll note also that the rules interpretation here - that two Bishops can silence these abilities if the two cards are present in a tableau - is not circular here and can be specified in a well-grounded inductive manner:

1. An ability on a card is not silenced if there is no Bishop on the card.

2. An ability on a card with a Bishop is not silenced if silencing is disabled by an ability (on another card in the same tableau) that is not silenced per #1 above.

(The induction here is somewhat degenerate because there are only two such cards and their abilities apply to all cards in the tableau.)
 
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Rafał Kruczek
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phileklund Posted Wed Nov 2, 2016 8:27 pm wrote:
The glossary definitions are intended to be overarching.
Therefore both the bishops would effectively silence the Abilities.
As I said last time, I am nervous about leaving out the golden rule.
If someone points out problems with enacting the abilities appropriately, I may be forced to add a golden rules saying that card rules supersede glossary definitions. If so, I will have to do an embarrassing abou face on my ruling. But the intention was to make the glossary definitions fundamental, so that the glossary is to the rules like a dictionary to a language.


phileklund wrote:
The glossary definitions are intended to be overarching.
Therefore both the bishops would effectively silence the Abilities.
As I said last time, I am nervous about leaving out the golden rule.
If someone points out problems with enacting the abilities appropriately, I may be forced to add a golden rules saying that card rules supersede glossary definitions. If so, I will have to do an embarrassing abou face on my ruling. But the intention was to make the glossary definitions fundamental, so that the glossary is to the rules like a dictionary to a language.


Pax Renaissance Living Rules
Design: Phil Eklund and Matt Eklund, Sierra Madre Games © 2016. Ver: June 08, 2017 wrote:


Golden Rule. If the text on a card contradicts these rules, the card has precedence. If text on a play aide contradicts these rules, the rules have precedence.

Golden rule was added.
So ,does it change the interactions in above cases?
1)Single bishop on Humanism/Humanism
2)one player having Humanism with bishop on in and Humanism with bishop on in


 
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