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Subject: Technology placement rule rss

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Zach Anderson
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So I was playing this with my Uncle last night, and he brought up and interesting question with technology placement. He had acquired a brown worker, and at the end of the round was placing his technology tile. He had a leftover single worker in a spot, and wanted to place his technology on the spot where the worker was. Can we do that? If so, what happens the worker? Does it go back in the bag or just on top of the tech tile?

I tried finding it in the rules, but I could not find anything. I may have just missed it. I seem to miss things like that somewhat frequently!

Any help the community can give me would be appreciated!
 
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Carl G
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If he wanted to do that, the worker goes back to the marketplace instead of the bag. Then at the draw, and he draws one less worker. Any time you want to move a placed worker back off the board without using him, he counts against a piece you would draw. I hope this helps!
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Aernout Casier
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Harl wrote:
If he wanted to do that, the worker goes back to the marketplace instead of the bag. Then at the draw, and he draws one less worker. Any time you want to move a placed worker back off the board without using him, he counts against a piece you would draw. I hope this helps!

Exactly.
 
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Carl Bussema
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Don't these things happen at different times though?

You place the tech tile while you pass during the resolve actions step.

You can't withdraw a worker until the next draw step.
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Peter Mulholland
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InfoCynic wrote:
Don't these things happen at different times though?

You place the tech tile while you pass during the resolve actions step.

You can't withdraw a worker until the next draw step.


Correct. You have to have the space to place the tech tile (so you couldn't place it where the worker is), and the worker doesn't get removed until the start of the round.
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Carl Bussema
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So the actual rules as written don't seem to prohibit placing a technology tile directly on top of a worker, as long as all the other rules are followed.

By a very strict, literal reading of the rules, I would be inclined to allow it, so the tech tile then just goes directly on top of the worker. (Note that the rules also do not seem to prohibit placing two workers on the same space, e.g. two farmers on "Village." This is probably an oversight. If you wouldn't allow that, you probably shouldn't allow this either.) During the next draw phase, you'll want to sacrifice a draw to return the worker to the bag. You can't just wait until you activate the location, because if you're going to go by the literal rules, a place will only activate "where you placed a Follower (or Technology Tile) on every required space." (International rules, page 15, emphasis mine), so you won't actually be to activate it, because it does not have only a single Follower or Tech Tile.

If you want to play more by the spirit of the rules, then you cannot have a worker and a technology tile in the same place at the same time, so you would need to wait an extra round to do this. The rules suggest (but are not necessarily precisely written) that you may decline to place a technology tile after you receive it, in which case you would be allowed to place it after the next time you pass:

International rules, page 16, emphasis mine wrote:
Put the Technology Tile next to your Player Board. You may only use it after you pass.
Technology: You can place the Technology Tile on an Action Space of your choice to replace the required Character Tile for the rest of the game.


That's not as clear as I'd like, and some would argue that if you don't place the technology tile immediately after you pass (the first time after earning the tile), you forfeit the right to ever be able to place it. I would still say that the spirit of the rules is to allow you to wait to place the tile, and generally this hurts you more than it helps, so I don't think you're getting any unfair advantages.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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InfoCynic wrote:
So the actual rules as written don't seem to prohibit placing a technology tile directly on top of a worker, as long as all the other rules are followed.

By a very strict, literal reading of the rules, I would be inclined to allow it, so the tech tile then just goes directly on top of the worker. (Note that the rules also do not seem to prohibit placing two workers on the same space, e.g. two farmers on "Village." This is probably an oversight. If you wouldn't allow that, you probably shouldn't allow this either.) During the next draw phase, you'll want to sacrifice a draw to return the worker to the bag. You can't just wait until you activate the location, because if you're going to go by the literal rules, a place will only activate "where you placed a Follower (or Technology Tile) on every required space." (International rules, page 15, emphasis mine), so you won't actually be to activate it, because it does not have only a single Follower or Tech Tile.

If you want to play more by the spirit of the rules, then you cannot have a worker and a technology tile in the same place at the same time, so you would need to wait an extra round to do this. The rules suggest (but are not necessarily precisely written) that you may decline to place a technology tile after you receive it, in which case you would be allowed to place it after the next time you pass:

International rules, page 16, emphasis mine wrote:
Put the Technology Tile next to your Player Board. You may only use it after you pass.
Technology: You can place the Technology Tile on an Action Space of your choice to replace the required Character Tile for the rest of the game.


That's not as clear as I'd like, and some would argue that if you don't place the technology tile immediately after you pass (the first time after earning the tile), you forfeit the right to ever be able to place it. I would still say that the spirit of the rules is to allow you to wait to place the tile, and generally this hurts you more than it helps, so I don't think you're getting any unfair advantages.


As you've pointed it out thats a very literal reading of the rules, and if you played like that I just think it wouldn't work (or be enjoyable).

I think the general, accepted understanding of the rules is:

- You place the tile on your board as soon as you receive it (following the placement rules; your first tech tile must go on a farm space, future tech tiles can go on any other space, you can never place a tech tile on a monk space, you can't place a tech tile in a space filled with a worker)

- If this activates an action you make take that action this round

At least thats how we play...

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A J
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PeterM2158 wrote:
InfoCynic wrote:
So the actual rules as written don't seem to prohibit placing a technology tile directly on top of a worker, as long as all the other rules are followed.

By a very strict, literal reading of the rules...


As you've pointed it out thats a very literal reading of the rules, and if you played like that I just think it wouldn't work (or be enjoyable).

I think the general, accepted understanding of the rules is:

- You place the tile on your board as soon as you receive it (following the placement rules; your first tech tile must go on a farm space, future tech tiles can go on any other space, you can never place a tech tile on a monk space, you can't place a tech tile in a space filled with a worker)

- If this activates an action you make take that action this round

At least thats how we play...



This is incorrect. You can only place the technology tile AFTER PASSING. This is explained on page 16 of the rules:

"Take a Craftsman Tile from the game board and put it into your Followers Bag. Then advance one space on the Craftsmen Track and receive a Technology Tile. Put the Technology Tile next to your Player Board. You may only use it after you pass."

This is designed so that you cannot use it in the same round that you obtain the tile.

From a strict reading of the rules, I'm inclined to agree with Carl's conclusion. I would also say that you can only place the tile immediately after passing and not after the beginning of the next round.
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Peter Mulholland
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ayejae wrote:
PeterM2158 wrote:
InfoCynic wrote:
So the actual rules as written don't seem to prohibit placing a technology tile directly on top of a worker, as long as all the other rules are followed.

By a very strict, literal reading of the rules...


As you've pointed it out thats a very literal reading of the rules, and if you played like that I just think it wouldn't work (or be enjoyable).

I think the general, accepted understanding of the rules is:

- You place the tile on your board as soon as you receive it (following the placement rules; your first tech tile must go on a farm space, future tech tiles can go on any other space, you can never place a tech tile on a monk space, you can't place a tech tile in a space filled with a worker)

- If this activates an action you make take that action this round

At least thats how we play...



This is incorrect. You can only place the technology tile AFTER PASSING. This is explained on page 16 of the rules:

"Take a Craftsman Tile from the game board and put it into your Followers Bag. Then advance one space on the Craftsmen Track and receive a Technology Tile. Put the Technology Tile next to your Player Board. You may only use it after you pass."

This is designed so that you cannot use it in the same round that you obtain the tile.

From a strict reading of the rules, I'm inclined to agree with Carl's conclusion. I would also say that you can only place the tile immediately after passing and not after the beginning of the next round.


Wow, my apologies. Looks like I've been playing this wrong! We had it so that you placed it as soon as you took it, and if it activated an action you could use it. This changes things... I guess thats how I was taught and never bothered to check!
 
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Benjamin Wells Kerenza
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InfoCynic wrote:
Note that the rules also do not seem to prohibit placing two workers on the same space, e.g. two farmers on "Village." This is probably an oversight. If you wouldn't allow that, you probably shouldn't allow this either.


If that were allowed would you be able to activate a tile twice by placing two sets of workers in the action and removing one set each time or would the activation remove both sets of workers?

Mostly playing devils advocate. The 'spirit of the rules' as I would see them wouldn't let you place multiple workers. I probably would allow placement of a tech tile under a worker at the end of the round. I don't know if I would insist that the player sacrifices a draw to get the stranded worker back or how else I would deal with that situation.
 
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Peter Mulholland
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bjwells wrote:
InfoCynic wrote:
Note that the rules also do not seem to prohibit placing two workers on the same space, e.g. two farmers on "Village." This is probably an oversight. If you wouldn't allow that, you probably shouldn't allow this either.


If that were allowed would you be able to activate a tile twice by placing two sets of workers in the action and removing one set each time or would the activation remove both sets of workers?

Mostly playing devils advocate. The 'spirit of the rules' as I would see them wouldn't let you place multiple workers. I probably would allow placement of a tech tile under a worker at the end of the round. I don't know if I would insist that the player sacrifices a draw to get the stranded worker back or how else I would deal with that situation.


I definitely wouldn't play that you could place multiple workers in the same spot.

Personally I will continue to play that you can only place a tech tile on an empty space, but obviously thats down to the group.

And I'm pretty sure the "sacrificing a draw to retrieve a worker" is the one bit which is actually pretty clear in the rules? (Although this thread has shown that I apparently don't know the rules as well as I thought I did...)
 
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Carl Bussema
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Yes, you may sacrifice a draw to "unlock" a worker from an action space back to your market (you must have room in your market). It's clarified on these forums (sorry, don't have a link) that this may done after any number of draws; so if you have 6 draws, you can draw 5, then decide if unlocking a worker would be good based on what you have already drawn or not.

As for multiple activations by assigning multiple workers, if you're going to read the rules strictly enough to allow multiple workers per spot, then I'd insist on reading the "a follower or technology tile" literally, and never let you activate it.
 
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Benjamin Wells Kerenza
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InfoCynic wrote:
As for multiple activations by assigning multiple workers, if you're going to read the rules strictly enough to allow multiple workers per spot, then I'd insist on reading the "a follower or technology tile" literally, and never let you activate it.


So your interpretation would be that you can have multiple copies of workers on an action but you would only be able to activate it with one worker (or technology) on each space.

Thus if you put a technology tile on a space with a worker you could not activate that action until you had sacrificed a bag draw to return the worker from on top of the technology tile (similarly with double stacked workers which I can only assume you'd do to bank certain worker types to free up space in your market)
 
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A J
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I think there's two stances you can take:

1. Temporarily allow "doubling up" of a space where you can place the Technology tile on the same space as a worker. This worker would then be pulled back into your Marketplace during your next bag draw, reducing your bag draw by 1, according to the bag draw rules.

-OR-

2. Require that the space that you place the Technology tile be empty when you place. In order to place it in an occupied space, you would have to save the Technology tile until the end of your NEXT turn. You'd then have to pull the worker back at the next bag draw, opening the space up. At the end of that turn, you'd then be able to place the Technology tile on the empty space.

I'm actually inclined to go with #2, as that would change less rules in my eyes (you don't have to get into the whole doubling-up thing).
 
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Carl Bussema
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bjwells wrote:
InfoCynic wrote:
As for multiple activations by assigning multiple workers, if you're going to read the rules strictly enough to allow multiple workers per spot, then I'd insist on reading the "a follower or technology tile" literally, and never let you activate it.


So your interpretation would be that you can have multiple copies of workers on an action but you would only be able to activate it with one worker (or technology) on each space.

Thus if you put a technology tile on a space with a worker you could not activate that action until you had sacrificed a bag draw to return the worker from on top of the technology tile (similarly with double stacked workers which I can only assume you'd do to bank certain worker types to free up space in your market)


Personally I wouldn't allow doubling-up, but my interpretation is that if you DID allow it, then yes, it's all as you described. I believe the rules as written DO allow it as described, but that this is not the intended way to play.
 
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ayejae wrote:
I think there's two stances you can take:

1. Temporarily allow "doubling up" of a space where you can place the Technology tile on the same space as a worker. This worker would then be pulled back into your Marketplace during your next bag draw, reducing your bag draw by 1, according to the bag draw rules.

-OR-

2. Require that the space that you place the Technology tile be empty when you place. In order to place it in an occupied space, you would have to save the Technology tile until the end of your NEXT turn. You'd then have to pull the worker back at the next bag draw, opening the space up. At the end of that turn, you'd then be able to place the Technology tile on the empty space.


-OR-

3. You have to place the technology tile on an empty space according to the rules at the end of the round. If you left the place you want to use it covered then you have planned badly and you have to put it somewhere else.

No 3 seems quite Harsh but I fell like it changes the rules less. Actually based on InfoCynic's technicality No 1 changes the rules the least.
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Peter Mulholland
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bjwells wrote:
ayejae wrote:
I think there's two stances you can take:

1. Temporarily allow "doubling up" of a space where you can place the Technology tile on the same space as a worker. This worker would then be pulled back into your Marketplace during your next bag draw, reducing your bag draw by 1, according to the bag draw rules.

-OR-

2. Require that the space that you place the Technology tile be empty when you place. In order to place it in an occupied space, you would have to save the Technology tile until the end of your NEXT turn. You'd then have to pull the worker back at the next bag draw, opening the space up. At the end of that turn, you'd then be able to place the Technology tile on the empty space.


-OR-

3. You have to place the technology tile on an empty space according to the rules at the end of the round. If you left the place you want to use it covered then you have planned badly and you have to put it somewhere else.

No 3 seems quite Harsh but I fell like it changes the rules less. Actually based on InfoCynic's technicality No 1 changes the rules the least.


This.

If you haven't planned well enough then it's your problem that you can't put the tech tile where you want it to go.
 
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Carl Bussema
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For your number 3, I would amend that to say "You may place the technology tile at the end of the round; if you do, it must be on an empty space and follow all other rules; if you do not, you forfeit the right to place it." The rules are at least clear that placing it is optional.

I don't think the rules are particularly clear on whether you can place it later or not, which is why I would generally favor option 2. I don't think this is giving anyone any unfair advantages as I've already said; you give up a lot already to do that: you have to give up a draw later to unlock the worker, and you give up at least one round where you could be using the technology tile.

I would also allow a player to give up an unplaced technology tile if they must suffer torture; the rules do not require it to be one placed, and again, if you have a technology tile you're not doing anything with, and you're undergoing torture, you're probably already losing, so I don't think this is unfair.
 
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PeterM2158 wrote:
bjwells wrote:
ayejae wrote:
I think there's two stances you can take:

1. Temporarily allow "doubling up" of a space where you can place the Technology tile on the same space as a worker. This worker would then be pulled back into your Marketplace during your next bag draw, reducing your bag draw by 1, according to the bag draw rules.

-OR-

2. Require that the space that you place the Technology tile be empty when you place. In order to place it in an occupied space, you would have to save the Technology tile until the end of your NEXT turn. You'd then have to pull the worker back at the next bag draw, opening the space up. At the end of that turn, you'd then be able to place the Technology tile on the empty space.


-OR-

3. You have to place the technology tile on an empty space according to the rules at the end of the round. If you left the place you want to use it covered then you have planned badly and you have to put it somewhere else.

No 3 seems quite Harsh but I fell like it changes the rules less. Actually based on InfoCynic's technicality No 1 changes the rules the least.


This.

If you haven't planned well enough then it's your problem that you can't put the tech tile where you want it to go.


Ok, yeah I can see #3 being another interpretation, but I think that's a bit too harsh for this game in our group. I'll probably go with #2 until we get an official ruling on this.
 
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Mitch Harding
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The designer weighed in on part of this in another thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/21029437#21029437

He states that technology tiles may only be placed on vacant spaces.

In terms of whether you are allowed to delay placing a technology tile, I've never seen an official answer.
 
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mitcharf wrote:
The designer weighed in on part of this in another thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/21029437#21029437

He states that technology tiles may only be placed on vacant spaces.

In terms of whether you are allowed to delay placing a technology tile, I've never seen an official answer.


I think for that it would be a case of: "If the rulebook doesn't say you can, then you can't "

Or to put it another way "just because the rulebook doesn't say you can't, doesn't make it ok"

The rules don't say that I can't punch you in the face and steal your workers...
 
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Mitch Harding
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PeterM2158 wrote:
mitcharf wrote:
The designer weighed in on part of this in another thread:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/21029437#21029437

He states that technology tiles may only be placed on vacant spaces.

In terms of whether you are allowed to delay placing a technology tile, I've never seen an official answer.


I think for that it would be a case of: "If the rulebook doesn't say you can, then you can't "

Or to put it another way "just because the rulebook doesn't say you can't, doesn't make it ok"

The rules don't say that I can't punch you in the face and steal your workers...


First, let me state that I have always played that you place your Technology Tiles at the end of the round in which you acquired them. But I still find what the rules have to say (or not say) on this subject interesting.

Based solely on what is written in the Craftsmen section of the rules, I disagree with your assessment. The Craftsmen section (page 6 in TMG rules, page 16 in dlp rules) says only this about the timing of placing the Technology Tiles:
Quote:
Put the Technology Tile next to your Player Board. You may only use it after you pass.


Based on that, the only restriction is that you have to wait until you have passed to place the Technology Tile. But it doesn't state that you are required to do it as soon as you have passed, only that you cannot do it sooner than that.

The fact that the rules have such an explicit list of other constraints on placing Technology Tiles further suggests that if they had intended you to be required to place the Technology Tile at a specific time, then they would have explicitly stated that. Arguing against that, of course, is the thread I linked in my earlier reply. The rules also do not mention a constraint about placing a Technology Tile on an occupied space, but in that thread the game designer clearly indicates that this is not allowed.

So what are we to think?

It was at this point in my rules investigation that I realized there is another part of the rules where Technology Tiles are discussed -- the description of the Laboratory tile. And interestingly, the TMG and dlp rules differ slightly in this section.

The dlp rules (page 23) state:
Quote:
You receive a Technology Tile that you may place on an Action Space of your choice (except for Monk Spaces). The usual rules for Technology Tiles apply.


The TMG rules (page 11) state:
Quote:
You receive a Technology Tile that you may place on an Action Space of your choice at the end of the round (except for Monk Spaces). The usual rules for Technology Tiles apply.


Based on THIS, I would argue that the TMG rules do suggest that Technology Tiles are to be placed at the end of the round. It is possible to interpret the TMG rules as saying that Technology Tiles obtained from Craftsmen obey different placement timing rules than Technology Tiles obtained from the Laboratory, but I think that's a stretch.

However, the dlp rules are still unspecific about timing in the Laboratory section. I'd be interested to know why the TMG rules ended up having this slight difference.

In summary, I think the TMG rules are clear on this point, but the dlp rules are vague. Regardless, I'd probably still play that Technology Tiles are to be placed at the end of the round, pending some official indication that the game designer intended otherwise.
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