Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
17 Posts

Memoir '44» Forums » General

Subject: Upping the ante—depth and M44 rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Gunky Gamer
United States
Gardiner
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Where is your rope?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
A few months back I posted in this forum about my desire to return to M44. I'd let my copy go in order to commit to Commands & Colors: Ancients. The motivation to return was that my kids (12 and 16) expressed interest.

In short order I have amassed a reasonably impressive M44 stockpile (2 base games, the various theater expansions, terrain, overlord, pdf of campaign book 1). I've thought about grabbing breakthrough and an equipment pack, but otherwise I'm done.

I went into this already knowing that I liked M44, having played the heck out the base. Since the re-acquisition campaign began, I have not yet had time to play or even explore all the goodies. Most of it came as one, well priced acquisition opportunity and will take time to get to the table.

All that exposition is really just a lead up to one specific question. In your opinion, which expansion or combination of expansions adds the most depth to the game? By that I mean what brings in nuance and thought to the game that doesn't appear in the base. And somewhat related, but more just for curiosity, are there any additions that close the perceived gap between M44 and C&C: Ancients?

This is not at all a criticism of vanilla Memoir. I really like it and I'm having a blast playing it with my boys. For some demographics, tanks and army men beat out wooden cubes every day of the week, regardless of strategic depth.

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Stig Morten
Norway
Kvernaland
flag msg tools
Thunder Alley: Crew Chief Expansion - Coming soon to Kickstarter!
badge
Evil lurks here!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Campaigns and breakthrough is for me the best part of Memoir.
Movement of units is more important in BT.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Anton Nieuwkoop
Netherlands
Klundert
Netherlands
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Breakthough give the game another dimenions in combination with the breakthrough deck.
If you like more units and rules you can add Winterwar (which you need for the breakthrough deck) or the equipmentpack.

3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael
United States
Boulder
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I agree with the others. Breakthrough scenarios offer a lot of depth, figuratively and literally! The D-Day maps are really fun and offer a lot of options as well (it's also handy that the map is set up!) Personally, I feel the Memoir 44 expansions are inexpensive enough (those that are in print anyway) that I just want to have them, they all add something and so enjoy this system and game. But I understand specializing and honing in as well.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kent Reuber
United States
San Mateo
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I use the Breakthrough deck in the standard scenarios as Breakthrough scenarios.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael
United States
Boulder
Colorado
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, I cannot recommend highly enough the Strategy and Tactics Guide! This is a remarkable, and beautiful tome! I would think you would really enjoy it, but especially for your kids, this book brings one to the real problems and questions that Memoir 44 brings. The book is also very relevant for C&C Ancients, and war-games in general. Some of the advice is unique to Memoir 44, but a lot of it translates very clearly to other games. I grew up playing Warhammer 40K, and it took a lot of trial and error to learn very basic things. I wish I would have had this book and Memoir 44 growing up, it would have profoundly affected my capabilities as a player, and my appreciation of war-games in general as well.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunky Gamer
United States
Gardiner
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Where is your rope?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm all for adding expansions to Memoir. I think Breakthrough is really the main thing I am missing, although the equipment pack might be nice.

What I'm most interested in is understanding what adds the most relative depth to Memoir. Sounds like BT is the ticket. (I have Winter War).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lewis Karl
United States
Vienna
Virginia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Neither Breakthrough nor Equipment Pack adds much depth. It doesn't really get very deep with Memoir '44 and that's the point (a point often forgotten by DOW).

Breakthrough adds physical depth to the game and does slightly modify the movement orders with section cards. However, this was another afterthought, added to breakthrough mode (which existed before the expansion BTW) in this expansion. It merely fixes a problem some people had with the game not progressing fast enough or units not moving across the depth of the board fast enough. Is it added "depth" or merely another rule tweaking to satisfy the impatient? But I do like breakthrough, so this expansion is very nice.

If anything, the Equipment Pack muddies the waters with useless plastic figures of dubious value. The elegance of C&C Napoleonics (sorry don't have Ancients) is because there are not a lot of poorly thought-out rules tacked on to a simple base game. It was well thought out from the start. Memoir abstracts infantry, artillery and armour in the base game, but folks wanted mortars, and machine guns and snipers, and tank destroyers etc. Many of these are poorly implemented because there are not many degrees of freedom to change fire power (number of dice and 4/6 sides) and movement (1 to 4 max). I am sort of playing devil's advocate here, but deep down I truly believe the Eq. Pack was a useless expansion.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeroen Nieuwenhuis
Netherlands
Epe
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I feel good scenarios add more depth to Memoir'44.

I personally find that in the East front scenarios where there is more of a "chess" game going on between the Russians and the Germans and the terrain plays a bigger part.

What I like about memoir is that the rules are simpler than in the other games and it still offers a lot of depth. The "simplicity" of the rules makes it more accessible for children, I feel.

Having said that, my 14 year old son does not like to play M44 but we instead play C&C Napoleonics, Battledore 1st Edition, and we got in a few games of the Grate War of the C&C series. His favorite though is Samurai Battles which we do not play in the C&C way but in the Art of Tactic Way (every unit gets an order every turn, plays much much slower than C&C)

BT adds literal depth and there is more maneuvering going on like in the more historic C&C games. But I find a good scenarios also needs that maneuvering, mostly because the designer has thought about the lay-out of the land very carefully.

Enjoy rediscovering M44 with your children. cool
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gunky Gamer
United States
Gardiner
New York
flag msg tools
badge
Where is your rope?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pisqueeter wrote:
Neither Breakthrough nor Equipment Pack adds much depth. It doesn't really get very deep with Memoir '44 and that's the point (a point often forgotten by DOW).



This might be just the answer I was looking for. Looking back, I realize that the way I posed my question assumes that there are expansions that add depth, but that may not be the case. Nor is added depth necessarily desirable. We like Memoir the way it is, in fact.

I do think I will add breakthrough as I'm curious about how the change in layout and the deck play out.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Wolfram Troeder
Germany
Bruchkoebel
Hessen
flag msg tools
Boardgaming is not a matter of life or death...
badge
...it's much more important than that!
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
My highlight is to play one of the small campaigns, Vercors, Crete etc come to mind, as these not only string single scenarios together, but the degree of the win/loss in one matters for the next.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
david Gorman
Ireland
flag msg tools
mbmb
If you can get enough players overlord is great. We play with a slightly modified version field commanders dont have to play cards can save them and when taking the initiative flag and grenade results are just no order not negative as that is bad enough.

We tried the Russian campaign from campaign book 1 with 6 players it requires 3 base games and eastern front for models terrain packs not sure if you can get away with 2 and 1 airpack if you have enough air sortie cards as max 6 aircraft in air (models will be wrong at times).

The players form 2 teams of 3 each gets assigned north centre or south and the 3 campaigns go side by side same random events and 1 reserve pool we allowed a swap in geographical assignments after the 2nd battle
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
StevenE Smooth Sailing...
United States
Torrance
California
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
pisqueeter wrote:
Neither Breakthrough nor Equipment Pack adds much depth. It doesn't really get very deep with Memoir '44 and that's the point (a point often forgotten by DOW).

Breakthrough adds physical depth to the game and does slightly modify the movement orders with section cards. However, this was another afterthought, added to breakthrough mode (which existed before the expansion BTW) in this expansion. It merely fixes a problem some people had with the game not progressing fast enough or units not moving across the depth of the board fast enough. Is it added "depth" or merely another rule tweaking to satisfy the impatient? But I do like breakthrough, so this expansion is very nice.

If anything, the Equipment Pack muddies the waters with useless plastic figures of dubious value. The elegance of C&C Napoleonics (sorry don't have Ancients) is because there are not a lot of poorly thought-out rules tacked on to a simple base game. It was well thought out from the start. Memoir abstracts infantry, artillery and armour in the base game, but folks wanted mortars, and machine guns and snipers, and tank destroyers etc. Many of these are poorly implemented because there are not many degrees of freedom to change fire power (number of dice and 4/6 sides) and movement (1 to 4 max). I am sort of playing devil's advocate here, but deep down I truly believe the Eq. Pack was a useless expansion.


I agree mostly with your argument Lewis.

I'd also like to add this is the danger of not maintaining the majority of creative control. I doubt anyone but RB and DoW know the terms of the licensing but I would bet a large sum of money that DoW went to RB and said "we need another expansion what do you got?" RB produced a nice fluffy white bunny and said "here you go."

DoW looked at it and said "we can make this better" and proceeded to tinker with what was given to them.

Look at the base game and first few expansions.
I don't think DoW monkey'ied with the original formula delivered by RB.

Now sample Air Pack and Equipment Pack... to me it looks like someone rewrote the simplicity right out of the game. (more so with Air Pack)

My evidence would be the rules sets of Ancients, Battle Cry, Napoleonics and The Great War. These look to have remained intact from what RB delivered. Not much changed and everything is pretty easy to remember.

I still like M'44 but I think DoW may have ignored teachings from the master/senpai... bad kōhai
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ryan Keane
United States
Medford
Massachusetts
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
M44 is supposed to be fast and light. I think the Campaign books and fan-made campaigns add the most depth, particularly if they're designed that your choices and results in one game, not just winning or losing, affect future games.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Friend
United States
Sierra Vista
Arizona
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You made an excellent choice going with Breakthrough. Sine you have two base games I'd say Overlord adds a great deal of depth in so far as M44 has depth. You and the kids might like one or both of the campaign books too. And they're not expensive.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nicolas Aubert
France
TOULON
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
esirof wrote:
pisqueeter wrote:
Neither Breakthrough nor Equipment Pack adds much depth. It doesn't really get very deep with Memoir '44 and that's the point (a point often forgotten by DOW).



This might be just the answer I was looking for. Looking back, I realize that the way I posed my question assumes that there are expansions that add depth, but that may not be the case. Nor is added depth necessarily desirable. We like Memoir the way it is, in fact.

I do think I will add breakthrough as I'm curious about how the change in layout and the deck play out.


Hello, i really like breakthrough as it let gives youn more time to plan your "strategy" but it also means longer games.

As for getting more material have you gone through DOW's forums and database? You have a lot of interesting free stuff out there
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bob Gibson
United States
San Diego
California
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Began playing M44 Overlord when it was first issued and haven't looked back to single board games. Overlord is awesome and worth the added expense!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.